RavenCries

@Nottom

If folks are looking for an unbias point of view, I suspect the best practice would be to wait until Star Wars is released and play the game for yourself. You can't really complain about the author expressing his opinion in an opinion based article, it's simply how he felt.

I think with TOR I'm going to try and avoid forums as the launch day gets closer, and certainly try to avoid them after. I will probably read the review from a site I'm relatively comfortable with to be (or at least attempt) balanced beyond that I don't think there's much weight in reading other peoples "reviews".

All in all, TOR is looking pretty good, not revolutionary but certainly evolutionary. Looks like it'll be a whole lot of fun.

@Streamweaver

Yup, now you can enjoy all the threads complaining about the release date instead :)

@Space Cobra

I actually don't subscribe cable or watch TV. Partly because I don't like advertising in my entertainment, partly because they kept killing off shows that I was actually enjoying in favour of American Idol but mostly because they force you to purchase 50 channels for the 3 you actually spend time watching.

I’ve always viewed my purchase and subscription of an MMO in much the same way that I purchase cable internet or phone or any number of other services. In paying for a subscription I am purchasing access to their servers and the continued maintenance of the game (bug fixes, class balances, etc). This is actually part of the reason I prefer subscription based games vs free-to-play, as I’ve always felt there is a connection between you and the service (game) that you are playing. The developers have some responsibility to me as a player to provide quality product (if they wish to keep my subscription). I just don’t have that in FTP games.

Perhaps my expectation of what I’m purchasing is too low, because it sure seems like everyone else is expecting the moon to be delivered to them for $15/month…

Far as the cash shop is concerned it goes along with how I purchase other services. I cannot begrudge MMO developers offering products in addition to their service without complaining about all the other industries that do exactly the same bleeding thing. At least not without being one hell of a hypocrite.

“The glib forum-warrior response to this is of course: Don't buy the stuff! It's not required! They're just vanity items! The point, though, is that for some gamers it is required.”

Except that the “glib forum-warrior” is essentially correct. Wanting that fancy new shinny DVR player that’s in your cable companies online store does not mean it’s required to watch your cable service. On the other hand if a game does not provide any alternative to what is in the online cash-shop, I would consider that a problem with the game. But that’s an entirely different issue, not the same as simply having a subscription with a cash shop.

I think my only real complaint with cash shops is when they start advertising it in game. Fortunately I’ve only really encountered that in FTP titles that I’ve tried, but when it’s there it annoys the crap out of me. I've yet to encounter a really intrusive cash shop in a subscription game that I've played and I've yet to make a purchase from one.

I don’t foresee cash shops disappearing, regardless if you wish to dig your heels in and roll back the clock to 2005. That’s life.

@Tempes Magus

I agree we will probably have to disagree.

My comments are not really related to the situation in Eve or it's particular version of an item shop.

I can see the point of view that is causing the problems in eve. I also don't think that is the point of view you are pushing when you are arguing against item shops in subscription games.

@Tempes Magus

I suppose I should have clarified that you are paying for access to their service (i.e. the game servers and content as presented by the developer) when I said server access. I thought it was an obvious thing but it would appear I was mistaken.

“There are so many obvious problems with having a mandatory subscription and charging for micro-transactions that it can make your head spin. It's not right to charge for micro-transactions in a mandatory subscription game. It is probably not even legal, but nobody has ever tested that in a court of law.”

No, there aren’t any real problems with offering a service and offering other products related to that service. It happens all the time in business. E.g. a golf club membership who also rents golf clubs. A boat rental service that sells fishing gear, these do the same thing as you describe. And I am almost positive that none of that is illegal.

“If you can't use a product without a second separate purchase of time to use it then:
1) Why is the purchase of time not included with the product?
2) Why is the product a separate purchase and not included with the purchase of time?
3) Why can you even buy a product that you are not allowed to use without paying more money separately?

Is that not obviously wrong to you?!?”

No, none of that is wrong at all. Taken by itself there is nothing inherently wrong with a cash shop existing whether the game is presented as F2P or P2P. The 3 things you list are business decisions.

“Micro-transactions need to be usable offline without paying for time or at least some time must be included with them so that they can be used or there must be no subscription ever to use them.
The way micro-transactions currently are in every subscription game is just completely wrong.”

What about something like Netflix? You cannot use it offline and you need to pay for internet access in addition to purchasing time on Netflix. You are talking again of a business decision that isn’t yours to make. You may not like how other companies are doing but that doesn’t make it wrong. You do have the option not to get Netflix though. You are basically arguing that because you purchased a subscription from your ISP, Netflix should be available to you for free. Yes I realize your ISP and Netflix are a separate company but if item shops were run buy a 3rd party, would it be alright then?

“I'm not even a fan of time counting down when I'm not even using it, not costing the company any money at that moment, but having to purchase that time just to use something I paid directly for the right to use, if not the right to own, is absolutely not right with me.”

Then don’t purchase the micro-transaction item, it’s not required to play the game. What you pay for in a subscription is the game access and the game content as presented by the developer. If a developer decides that a sparkle pony is not part of the general game but a novelty item they wish to provide separately then that is their call. Your call is whether you will purchase the item or not. If you don’t, it doesn’t affect your game so you shouldn’t care.

@Tempes Magus

As far as I can tell, when you pay for a subscription what you are actually paying for is access to *their* content (a service). You own nothing and are entitled to only what is spelled out in the agreement you signed to obtain the service (access to the game servers, future patches, that kind of thing).

Offering an item shop over and above a subscription is perfectly legitimate. Something akin to a cable company selling a brand of TVs in their stores that provide additional features when connected to their cable service. Having a subscription to their cable service doesn't entitle you to free TVs.

Now if the company deliberately alters their cable service such that the picture will be poor on a standard TV in order to sell their exclusive TVs, that's a completely different issue. Such a case when item shops start selling things that affect gameplay (better ships, ammo, etc).

Get use to having at least a rudimentary item shop in games regardless of payment structure, I doubt they are going away.

@Skyydragonn

Thanks for the reply constructive reply :P

I agree the pricing is a bit stupid. I'm not sure I would believe that a cash shop after a game is released (or even at the time of release) necessarily negates the value of the effort put into your characters development (depends what is being sold).

If items are sold that affect gameplay then yes being upset is reasonable. Protesting and/or petitioning the developers as an expression of displeasure to try and get them to revert their decisions makes sense. But cosmetic items that just look different and don't affect gameplay...seems like the old children's story "The Boy who Cried Wolf". Getting angry before the wolf even shows up.

Ah well, cash shops are a touchy subject I suppose. I only dislike them if they feel mandatory, so far that's only occurred in F2P titles, the rest is just fluff. Hopefully it'll work itself out.

@Khai mann

I stated in my comment that I did not understand, so yes the comment was asking about something I don't understand (good lord imagine that!). Your response was useless but thanks. I can only assume that either you don't want to be bothered giving a constructive answer or you don't know, or possibly both, either way you probably shouldn't bother posting replies.

Majority of the negative comments are about the store and the micro-transactions. If the situation isn't about those things, then it seems to me that people are really not getting that message out properly.

I don't quite get the problems people are having with this (granted those prices are kind of laughable, but beyond that)

I'm assuming, from the sound of it, that these items for sale aren't actually required for anything other than cosmetic looks. The choice is to the player to spend money on the items or not. If these items changed gameplay I could see a problem but from the sound of it they don't.

So the players are protesting what exactly? The addition of a store you don't have to buy from? The addition of purchasable cosmetic items that they don't actually need to get? The overly high price of items they don't need to get? A company offering product with the goal to make money?

I didn't understand the hate people had for blizzard over their sparkle pony, which I didn't get and it didn't affect my game at all. This sounds like the same deal but with space junk and stupidly high prices. I don't recall ever having the urge to picket in front of Wal-Mart because they are selling crap I don't need and won’t buy...

This sounds a lot like people jumping on a bandwagon for a "principle" that isn't well defined beyond some vague emotional attachment.