Jihoko

@Djinn

Sigh, enough with the combative "arguments" that are little more than ignorant judgments.

"If players liked those games, why don't they go play them?"

You can't possibly believe this is a valid argument can you? The discussion is about what we want game developers to focus on for NEW games, because most players can only get so much enjoyment out of one game. The answer to your question is we're tired of those games, not because they were bad, but because we played them for 5+ years. That's like saying "well no more theme park games need to be made because people can just play WoW till the end of time."

@Djinn

"I think such a style of gaming is questionable. I wonder if people who like FFA PvP would really like to live in a world like GTA. If you wouldn't like your Real World to be like that, why do you like to pretend your world is like that? I mean talk about immersion, I do have to wonder.."

It doesn't seem like you've thought much about this, because the above makes no sense. I don't think many people wish the real world were like the fantasy worlds they enjoy, they're often harsh, dangerous places where death lurks around every corner, even in PvE games. Those types of things are fun to experience in controlled conditions in a game world: but in real life they would mostly be stressful and traumatic. I could ask the same question of a WoW player:

"Do you want to live in a world where you're forced to kill the same monsters in the same place, every day, for weeks/months, until you can attain an item that will let you do the same thing all over again for weeks/months? Would you enjoy the same monster that is terrorizing your friends and community coming back to life every single god damn day, effectively making you much like Sisyphus? (the Greek god that had to push the rock up the hill for eternity)"

The above quote isn't very fair, but neither was yours. Lets remember that these are games and that the only thing that matters here is what mechanics increase our enjoyment and appreciation of the game, not how they would play out in real life.

"but... you FFA advocates are all homicidal maniacs"

The whole stereotype that everyone who likes FFA PvP are ruthless PvPers really couldn't be more wrong. I, for example, don't kill anyone unless attacked first or I am at war with someone else. (and even then, not always) It's the same with a large percentage of players of any FFA games: many are just into it for the immersion aspects and excitement it provides. It also gives a large amount of power to the players like you said, which creates very interesting social dynamics.

That being said, the problem of sociopaths run amok in games like Darkfall is definitely there. Every game needs its villains but when the villains start to overpopulate the heroes it can get discouraging. (though one does get used to it eventually) This is why FFA games need to have penalties for "going red." So far, the vast majority of FFA games have probably been too permissive. There are also "FFA" games that are so punishing to RPK's that it never happens at all.

That doesn't mean there isn't a correct balance that can be achieved, just that few games have attempted FFA PvP in the first place, so there isn't a lot of data/experience in the genre. Darkfall is getting closer though: currently the system is broken because while you lose faction for killing players, you can gain it back by killing players.

What this means is if you kill racial enemies, you can gain faction back for your race alliance, giving you access to NPC towns/vendors without being shot down by the guard towers. It takes 10 enemy kills to get back the faction lost from one kill, but players abuse the system by killing their alt accounts or friends over and over when they go red (which takes minutes) and head right back out again.

In the next patch, killing racial enemies will no longer improve your faction, instead, players will have to seek penance for their wrong deeds at Churches in NPC cities. This will be both a monetary and time cost for RPKing and will make players think twice about randomly killing others, since the cost of regaining faction will be high. The problem of there being little incentive to stay blue in the first place will still remain, since players can live out of their clan cities and don't ever need to go to NPC cities. However, it does keep the RPK's out of the racial areas and they are going to add more incentives to being "good" as well.

Not sure if anyone is going to read all that, but I hope it illustrates that yes, this is indeed a complex issue, but not as black and white as many make it seem. It is not inherently unsolvable, and I think it's important to have the option to attack anyone you please if you are going to create an immersive fantasy world: so long as there are tangible consequences. (many players argue that the players will police themselves. works when your playerbase is mostly peaceful and just, but this is not often the case because the lack of rules attracts a certain element.)

@Jihoko bleh, "the article is just mimicing" should read "the article is *not* just mimicking" wru edit button?

This discussion seems to be getting off track. What's important to Jef and other posters are not power gaps, long travel, mundane grinds, or obscenely rare drops. Those things have been attributed to the increased enjoyment "hard core" players get from older games, but the article is just mimicing that popular, but inaccurate argument. It is trying to explain that there is a contingent of gamers larger than one would expect that want more types of gameplay from their MMO's.

We want to build cities, craft items, sail ships, dig up treasure, uncover lore, explore vast underground cave systems, play mini-games at the tavern, sit in chairs, open doors, cut down trees, etc. etc. etc. There is a unique appeal to such things that is lost on the newest generation, not because there aren't some that would enjoy it too, but because they haven't been exposed to it.

There is so much room for more exciting and creative ideas to be explored within the MMO medium but they simply aren't, I don't think many feel that there is some us vs. them battle going on, we just wish more interactive games would be made. I think the market for such games is underestimated and I suppose if there is any "battle" here, I would ask for fans of theme-park style games to not reject sandbox style games outright, recognize the unique possibilities inherent to such games, and question their assumption that there is no market there and our ship has sailed.

I was really hoping for Uncharted Waters Online because that is the only one out of these that I had never heard of. It's also the only one that seems to be attempting deeper sandbox gameplay. Massively should really have a column like this solely devoted to sandbox games, if there isn't one already.

Yeah, Vanguard's best aspects are the awe inspiring dungeons and cities. All the capital cities are phenomenal, and all of the "premiere" dungeons surpass almost all other MMO dungeons in size, variety, and challenge.

@Bartlebe

Actually, it seems like everyone who joins NEW gets that sort of treatment. I (unknowingly) started around the same time as Jef, and I've been invited along for all the things he has. (i'm actually starting to worry that the person I got into an argument with the other day was him, and that I'm going to be featured in the next article as the one asshole he encountered heh) I didn't know about NEW going into the game either, I was actually approached by a few players (after ganking me, heh) not even in the clan suggesting it. Just wanted to put that out there - you don't have to be a massively columnist to get a warm welcome to the game, if you look for it.