Ranzal

Yeah - it's blue because you represent the cuddle-boy mentality that has ruined MMOs over the past 8 years. You don't want to work for loot... You want it handed to you on a silver platter. Maybe if developers gave your character enough power you can solo every end-boss in the game too. End-Game raid loot for all! Bragging about a blue comment is like being happy to be King of the Idiots. Have fun with that.

Assumptions assumptions. I was a hardcore raider in EQ and remember fondly waiting around and TALKING to friends / getting other things done while on standby for raids. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet YOU never had any experience ever with old school MMOs and take all of your "reasoning" from WoW mechanics... sure looks so from all the dumb examples you have used!

Oh - and what happened to not wasting another post on me? You obviously have no REAL rebuttals for WHY the trinity is a socialization killer other than stating you can't group with YOUR friends because your schedule doesn't permit it. It's an MMO - sign on, make friends who play the classes you need, and tada! - You have a group... The SOCIAL aspect of the trinity.

I know this means that you may not be able to solo whenever you want... *GASP* What a travesty! Maybe you would have to travel outside of the little bubble that is your friends list and the Dungeon Finder, but that would be too much to ask from today's player base, wouldn't it?

BTW - weak insults and name-calling is a good way to have people take you seriously... Good game, my friend. Keep up the good work!

I love how I'm the confused one. You make blanket statements and double back on what you said time and time again - but somehow I'm confused... I gotta admit I'm glad your done spreading such idiotic ideas. Ideas mind you, that got the MMO market into this current rinse and repeat solo fest climate to begin with.

If people enjoy solo mechanics so much they should be playing console RPGs and not ruining MMOs for the rest of us. This idea of "me me me. I want I want!" has simply got to go. It does nothing for the genre, and cheapens the experiences of those of who actually enjoy grouping and the innate socialization that comes with it.

To get myself ready for the Zombie Apocalypse that is surely upon us, I would most definitely "play the part" by wearing that BOOMSTICK tee they have on their front page.

Break-out Bag!? Who needs one with that badass tee!

@Tempes Magus

LOL - I understand completely and you contradicted yourself AGAIN in your own post.

"Either you need to make the entire game a mandatory grouping game or you need to make SOLOING POSSIBLE, RELATIVELY EASY and fun for every class somehow. That means either breaking balance or allowing a system like Rift's souls or WoW's second build to change roles when necessary."

Can you honestly say that soloing ISN'T "possible, and relatively easy" in almost every game on the market?!? If you can't - I'm sorry... but maybe gaming isn't the best outlet for you. We currently HAVE systems like this in place and yet, the MMO market is bland and boring. According to you, this is somehow a problem withing the "hard trinity"...

I think we can all agree that balance means NOTHING outside of a PvP setting. It has already been established that PvE needs little balance and only the co-dependency of classes within a group setting. Oh - I forgot... you want to be able to solo!!! ...in a MMO... In which thousands of people play... My bad. PICK A CLASS THAT ALLOWS THAT OPTION! And I already know what you're going to say... "What if that is not the class I want to play?" Tough cookies, I guess.

Moreover, is it a coincidence that "balance" was thrown out the window when Blizzard decided to allow Paladins and Druids to do everything from heal/dps/ or tank all for the sake of PvP balance? ACTUALLY - (last I played) Druids (as a hybrid) were BETTER tanks AND equivalent healers than ALL other classes in the game / Paladins were insane DPS and equivalent tanks/healers. Hybrids were actually OVERPOWERED.

However, your solution to this would be to "just give EVERYONE the ability to AS GOOD" as these classes rather than nerf away the "awesomeness" of hybrid classes. This is exactly what you are saying! How is this possibly good for the game? Because everyone will be muddled into one giant clusterfuck of a class rather than being unique and specialized? They actually already have THIS system on the market too... it's called RIFT. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, is something you wouldn't play because some builds are insanely overpowered than others. Whats the solution to this? Make that class! Everyone has the same abilities in this system... go play. Have fun!

As I've said in previous comments, I don't think YOU know what you are saying... you keep flip flopping on your statements. Originally you stated the hard trinity could never fully work in ANY game that is balanced. (I think it worked great in EQ, but hey... what do I know!?) Now, you claim the trinity works fine as a group mechanic but a pure hybrid system works best in solo-centric games (in which I've already stated).

Now. you would argue that if everyone had the POTENTIAL to be a good tank, dps, or healer the game would be more balanced and classes would become more "unique." This plays right into the hand of a min/maxxer (as I've ALREADY stated before and you chose to laugh off).

Using YOUR example, if we are presented with 600 points to be thrown in any area of character building, would people not place the maximum amount of points that allows them THE BEST POSSIBLE CHANCES of doing a specific job? I mean - of your own admission, specialized classes do "job X" better than hybrids, pretty much all the time. (Which is bunk considering above statements about WoW Druids/Paladins). either way, if someone was more drawn to tanking, they would SPECIALIZE in a tanking "build" and wallah - we have a tank CLASS. People who chose to have a more "well-rounded" character will run around and say, "That person can do stuff I can't... wahhhh... gimme gimme gimme!" Yet, it is their CHOICE to throw points in UTILITY rather than specialize in a particular area... just as it is the CHOICE of someone to choose a hybrid class in the hard trinity.

You're entire argument is based upon comparing classes to other classes in a trinity system. "Hybrids can't do X that a specialized class can." However, this entire time you actually neglected to argue what hybrids do well comparatively to specialized classes. What about that Warrior tank who can't heal himself like a Paladin can? You are only seeing one side of the picture here. Your solution is to just give the tank a heal and be done with it... I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. Choice is a large part of MMO gaming. You would prefer to have all repercussions of choice be taken away and play in a risk free environment... I however, like that I must choose between X and Y.

This entire time, you have proven nothing other than the fact that you consistently make blanket statements about the "hard trinity" that are unproven and wildly inaccurate. You have shallowly taken the "WoW insult approach" when contradicted, time and time again. - "If you don't understand this then I am glad you are not developing a game, although your game would fail if you are because you don't understand what is necessary or creatively possible." - Come on man... Grow up.

@Tempes Magus

I really don't think YOU comprehend what a hybrid is... You're saying the right words, but your it just seems your grasp on the concept is not quite there. Maybe you should "un-confused" yourself before taking these arguements to personal levels.

"So you like being useless in PVE because another class can do your job better?
Or, do you like being useless as a tank because the healer can keep a DPS character up as the tank?"

I've got to be honest with you... This comment may be one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. It is a known fact that hybrids will not be masters of any ONE area of gaming simply because you sacrifice "mastery" for "utility." You are suggesting that no one should be specialized, and everyone should just be mediocre at everything. Arguing that a DPS can tank a mob does nothing but argue that the particular game you are playing is a SEVERE poor design. (I'm willing to bet it's WoW - but that's an entirely other story). Your statement is proof of nothing other than the fact that developers have no idea what they are doing.

MOREOVER, your statement is actually conterintuitive to your argument. BECAUSE many DPS classes have become so "hybrid-based" (i.e. - defensive based, Riftstlker alla RIFT), the balance between roles has been skewed over time. Over the years, people have whined, "I can't do what a cleric does on my rogue! etc etc etc" and developers have given the ignorant masses what they wanted without proper forethought... and suddenly, "classes" have actually become "hybrids-like" than class-based.

To argue further, (using EQ as an example) those people who chose a hybrid class such as a SK, Paladin, or Bard did so fully knowing they will be masters of none at the sake of tremendous amounts of ultility at their disposal. Yet, there was always a place for these classes because they all brought something UNIQUE to the group/raid. Hybrids were never gimped to the point of homogenization that they are in current MMOs. They all had something "no one else had," which made them, yes... unique. Class blending only happens when developers are not innovative enough to find niche roles for hybrids, and simply "just give everyone some dps, heals, and defense." ...Which is (unless I'm completely mistaken) what you are suggesting for the future of MMOs.

And then this whopper:

"The "hard trinity" kills fun and socialization. It doesn't allow people to just play together with whoever they want and have fun. It makes it hard for people to actually stay the same level unless they can always be online at the exact same time every time and always group for content."

I'm baffled. Seriously. Are you are suggesting here is that SOLO-friendly hybrid models are better for socialization, than class based co-dependant grouping? WOW! I think we get it: YOU want to play with your friends all the time, everytime you're logged in... but have you thought of why some people play MMOs? Socializing and world-wide communication is as much a part of MMOs as is leveling and raiding.

Early generation games were as much social games as MMOs, simply BECAUSE people often depended on strangers, which sometimes turned into life-long friendships. Pigeonholing yourself into groups ONLY with your friends because hybrid gameplay mechanics allow it, is somehow more "social" than being encouraged to meet new people and experience new things? ... Wow.

What you are suggesting is that hybrids will allow anyone to fill any role within a group, effectively allowing friends to group on their own schedules. Yet, the fact remains SOMEONE will have to fill in the roles of "tank,dps,heals, (maybe) cc" nonetheless. Boss mechanics would be chaos otherwise... with aggro volleying back and forth and so on. It just makes no sense. Hybrid systems simply solve little and create much more chaos.

The only logical gameplay a COMPLETE hybrid system caters towards is solo-friendly. And while I'm not completely against solo gamestyles as I grow older, we have to remember the core values of MMOs are based upon group co-dependancy and cooperation in the hopes that the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Something the trinity has represented wonderfully for many, many years.

@Tempes Magus

What your suggesting has been done in numerous PvP Sandbox MMOs already. You don't need to spell it out for me - I get what you're suggesting. Thing is, I don't think you even know what you're talking about anymore.

You originally championed the idea of all classes being hybrids in MMOs, which is already the case in some games already (i.e. - CoH) and now you want an advanced AA system that does NOTHING to alleviate the class system "problem" which you apparently detest. If specialized classes are innately better at doing X (dps/heal/tank) than hybrids - than why would anyone throw their 600 points in hybrid abilities? People will STILL make "classes" in this system because they are innately the "best" combo of what that person is attempting to accomplish. I am willing to bet that there will be many "rogue-like" or "mage-like" DPS classes running around in your system even though players are afforded more "customization." This happens because people are drawn to min/maxxing in its purest form (to be the best at X) not because they are presented with a class and they want to optimize their gameplay....

The trinity works. Of course, it is becoming a bit stale and some innovations to the system could be afforded, but to simply say "go and make your own character" does nothing to fix the problems it may have. People will still min/max. People will still create "classes."

I respect your opinion on the matter, as it is widely shared by myself... In fact I posted a very simlar system as to yours on another blog not too long ago. However, while you blame the trinity, I blame stale game mechanics. If PvP is your thing (its not mine) - games like Darkfall and EVE have done wonderful things to move the genre towards the direction you may like, however, the trinity is simply not the problem.

@Tempes Magus

You are obviously talking PvP here man. The holy trinity very little to do with PvE gameplay. So while you're arguments pertain greatly to PvP game mechanics, they have little to do with the PvE based holy trinity. I completely understand your want for hybrid models in PvP centric gaming, however the trinity mostly applies to PvE game mechanics.... So your arguments are virtually useless to me and anyone else here you are preaching to.

A game cannot cater towards BOTH PvP and PvE without these arguments which is why PvP was widely held out of early themepark MMOs except as a fun timekiller add-on. PvE gaming has everything to do with teamwork and coordination an nothing to do with "my class can't do what your class does! Wahhh." So while you may grow tired of playing a gimped PvP class, this has nothing to do with endgame PvE play, in which the trinity works great. Always has, always wil.

Bedtime = everyone (autocorrect)

@(Unverified)

How is it a bad thing for a Hybrid class to do "less" in comparison to a specialized class?!? As a hybrid you are sacrificing being specialized so that you can do more things... Albeit at a lesser skill. What do you want? To do AS MUCH DPS as a rogue, heal like a cleric, all while tanking a boss mob?!? Come on guys... Hybrids are the jack of all trades, masters of none. Quite simply, it's the price you pay for wanting to do "everything."

Would you rather bedtime go "god-mode" and be able to solo endgame bosses? Seriously. Get a hold of yourself here.

@Tempes Magus

Straying away from the holy trinity only promotes min/maxing and a copycat player base. We understand you don't like the holy trinity, but it is way better than a "everyone an do everything system.". That is the true lazy game design... When developers can't be imaginative enough to think of niche class abilities that make classes enjoyable to play, they simply just give everyone a heal, some DPS, and a defensive stance... How is this in any way freedom? Everyone is still the same... They are just simply way overpowered compared to the world in which you play!

Class specialization is the way to go... Anyone who ever played an Enchanter in EQ can attest this. Virtually no DPS, yet they had a niche specialization that appealed to certain players that made them damn fun to play. When everyone can do everything , game mechanics become stagnant and entirely to solo friendly.