Tasogare pretty much has it spot on. There's a lot of hate going back and forth that's been less than constructive here.
Yes, PQ's can be grindy - but not all PQ's are created equal. I've had some very memorable experiences with the better ones, and the differences between "kill X then Y then Z" and PQ's that have different mechanics tossed in (even when it boils down to much the same end result) can be night and day.
If you're just solo or duo grinding out Stage 1's, PQ's are going to blow.
If you've got a group and can finish out the whole thing (or multiple different ones ideally) the influence goes a lot faster and the grind is fairly well minimized.
Beyond all this, WAR's grind is a lot better hidden so far, for me, then WoW's grind ever was. Not having to wait until I'm at the top of a PvP level bracket to participate is huge as it opens up so many more options for playing the game.
Is there a grind? Of course there is - every MMO to date has had a grind associated with it, it's how companies get you to re-up your sub. The only question is which grind you prefer. For me, so far, WAR's grind is a lot less painful and I'm enjoying myself along the way (which is a far cry from the pain of trying to level another WoW alt, but that's probably due to me just burning out on the game - that's fine, happens to most folks eventually).
I think the biggest pull for me to WAR is the lessening on the structure of the game (hear me out). In WoW, it's conceivable that you could play every single part of the game with one set of 25 people. That tends to lend itself to guilds that become very cliquish seeing how there's no reason for them to ever have to work together. LK is going to see groups as small as 10 being able to go through everything in one form or another (though you'd miss out on some stuff, of course). It just started feeling very "old boys club" where egos and e-peens were running amok over a video game.
In WAR, the endgame has me very interested considering you're going to have to work as an entire realm to get things done. Sure, that's not everyone's cup of tea (and for good reason, I get that a lot of people don't want to have to work with some of the... less than desirable elements that you can run across in these games). For me though, the sense of community over guild is very appealing. So far the number of idiots I've run across has been far fewer (they're still there mind you... ) and maybe I've just lucked out so far but the community overall has been far more open and co-operative as a whole. It's a very subtle difference, but when you can't go hide after a cross-server BG because you're in that Scenario with people that are on your same server people tend to ease up on the stupidity a bit.
So is the game perfect? Of course not - no game has been or will ever be perfect. No game can ever appeal to everyone across the board, because everyone wants different things. For me WAR is a better collection of elements right now than WoW is, for others it'll be WoW over WAR. Neither game is clearly superior though because they are different enough to appeal to different aspect of our desires as gamers.
Having done the 1-70 grind in WoW twice now I just can't bring myself to do it again. I've tried once or twice, but in the end playing a different way isn't rewarding because I'm in the same zones doing the same quests over and over again.
I know once I'm done in this zone that I've got to head to this other zone next, and then there's this zone after that - not to mention the time sink that is actually gearing up a fresh 70 and polishing off the professions.
It's just lost the glitter for me. Now, lots of people enjoy the gameplay, and that's cool - the game has 10 mil subs for a reason after all. I've just grown tired of the "carrot on a stick" approach to endgame content. It started feeling like I was running on a treadmill for the sake of running on a treadmill.
I really wish that, instead of vertical progression game developers would concentrate on horizontal progression (similar to how Guild Wars was - at least for the first couple expansions, I dunno haven't played that game in awhile since I got sucked into WoW a few years back). When BC hit, once my wife and I got our main characters to 70 we rolled two alts and went through the BE lands (tauren alts no less) just to see the new content.
Not all new content has to be at the high end of gameplay. I think a lot of people enjoy the leveling process (not all, but a lot) as long as there's something new to be seen and to do.
Personally, I plan on playing WAR for awhile. I enjoy being able to jump into PvP while questing to break things up right from the start, I enjoy the PQ's - at times there seems to almost be too much to do in the game (which is a good thing IMO). I also want to level up 3 characters, because there are 3 completely different stories to go through in totally different lands.
I love the idea posted above about taking old raid content and raising it up to the level cap - if Blizz had done that I think you'd see a lot less burnout. Give players choices, don't force them down a very specific path of "Raid this, then you can start raiding this, then you can start raiding this... " - make it more open and people wouldn't get nearly as bored as fast. Add in a reason for people to play through the game again by giving them entirely new content to level through (past level 20) and you've got a winner.
The flight masters aren't like in WoW - you won't come across them in every major area, and you won't use them in the same way. They're not so much a taxi service as they are a mechanic for getting you from zone to zone.
That's fine, I actually liked the distinction.
It would be nice to have some quests that direct you to the Warcamps though, much like every PQ seems to have a quest or two associated with them. You can't shake a stick without getting a quest to go into a PQ zone, but finding the Warcamps can be difficult until you notice the trick - just head to the big RvR zone on the map, there's sure to be a camp or two nearby. ;)
I did the same thing Dan did with my Chosen and it was pretty rewarding being one of maybe 3 or 4 tanks around. That's something I'm seriously considering come launch.
1 - We don't know the full details. It could be there were hard-working contributers that left two months ago that didn't get credit, or it could be a couple of guys that spent half the day in the breakroom and left six months into the development pipeline. Odds are a little from collumn A and a little from collumn B.
2 - It may be poor form, but it's definately not criminal. In the software industry (any part of the software industry, not just gaming) you sign an employment agreement up front that says all work you do is 100% the property of the company you do it for. As a developer/coder you don't own any of that work, you get a paycheck and that's it.
I'm lead to understand that this is pretty common in the games industry. Considering you've got projects that last 3-5 years, that's a very long time with a massive staff list to keep track of. People would come and go on a project that long, it's just a fact of life. There's definately a line to be drawn or the credit list would be insane (joe blow worked on one program for three weeks and then left - does he get full credit?). I kind of like the idea posted above about putting in a list of "deserters" along with how long they were on the project, but that's definately in a perfect world. In the real world you've got people trying to do things like clean up code, add last minute polish, push PR events, and everything else at the last minute. I doubt the credit list exactly has top billing on the 'to-do' list.
Is it right? No, not necessarily - it really depends on the circumstances which we've already established just can't be known by us. We could be correct in saying that there's some shadiness going on. Or, Ms MacLean might be a tad overzealous. We simply don't know.
I doubt this is anything new though, and it could simply be that the industry's workers are tired of not getting credit for their efforts. They might have chosen Mythic as their line in the sand, or maybe Mythic took it to another level.
Too many questions, not enough details or answers.
It's very easy and fairly inexpensive to move from the starting racial zone to a different racial zone. Ask around when you get in game, folks should be able to point you in the direction of the nearest Warcamp. You'll probably want to kill a handful of mobs on the way to pay the fare, but it isn't very much.
The nice thing is you really don't suffer going to a different racial area. You can still train, the quests and PQ loot are still tailored to your class, there's really no need to head back to your own racial zone that I've seen so far unless you want to. The entire game is set up to be extremely flexable which is a great breath of fresh air.
The WoW cinematic was really cool, don't get me wrong - but it wasn't anything I didn't expect already. It was Arthas, and a big undead dragon, with a nice voiceover by Arthas' dad - but it had absolutely nothing to link you into the game. No character at all - just a raid boss' backstory that anyone who knows the lore already knows.
The WAR cinematic had me on the edge of my seat. It had dark humor, it told a story, and it featured the characters of the game and not some raid boss. That was a cinematic based off gameplay - a city siege no less. I *still* laugh every time I see that ork hit the rooftop during the Marauder/Shadow Warrior opening, not to mention the squig herder.
I dunno, both are excellent but I feel the WAR one just had more character to it.
Vlatch hit it right on the head. WoW needs some competition. Nothing's going to kill it (Mystic has even come out and said multiple times "WAR is not a WoW killer", the only people saying that are WoW haters and WAR fanatics), but something coming along and putting a noticable dent in Blizz's bottom line should be seen as a great thing for the industry.
WAR and WoW fanatics lose sight of this, in the end WAR doing well is a win-win situation for everyone playing both games.
I'm leaving WoW for awhile to play WAR, I'm loving the beta and I really hope that the game does well. Not to kill WoW, because I think WoW is an excellent PvE game - in order to continue pushing both companies to bring more and more content into their games. That's the payoff right there.
Everyone should be hoping for record high sales of WAR, for a good amount of subscriptions to stick, and for WotLK to fall short on its projected sales figures (though I won't hold my breath on the last one... ). If all that happens you'll be seeing plenty of great additions to both games in the years to come - mark my words.
I find Ripper's comments kind of amusing, though at the end of the day I agree with him that WAR won't kill WoW (though perhaps for slightly different reasons).
WAR's graphics are actually quite nice - they settle in between AoC's high-end and WoW's cartoon style. You don't need a bleeding edge system to run it, the minimum requirements are actually quite attainable by most people that have bought a PC within the past five years, and should run well on a system put together within the past two. That's not exactly what I'd call "bleeding edge" technology.
WoW's time sinks have pretty much made it so that if you're not willing to put a significant amount of time into the game (what most people would consider 'hard core'), you won't get far at max level. Elitism runs rampant with the nature of the cookie cutter specs and specific gear requirements. It may have begun as a great game for casuals, but it's steadily moved away from that beginning.
We'll have to wait and see how WAR's launch goes off, so far I'd call it more polished than other recent titles but of course it won't have the same sheen as WoW with its four+ years of development.
WoW's a good game, don't get me wrong - it has low system specs, tons of end game content in the form of raids, and plenty of neat little 'extras' like the holiday events and vanity pets along with a massive social structure that will keep many people playing for years no matter what other MMO's come out. There are people that are borderline fanatical about the game despite the flaws that are there (and yes, as good as it is the game does have its share of flaws as well).
There are others though that are either tired of certain things, or are looking for something new that will try WAR out. If the launch is good I don't know if we'll be seeing them coming back "to their old, comfortable characters". Some will, some won't - only time will tell how it all shakes out.
@Improv - there are 2 mechanics to avoid 'ganking'.
If you go into an RvR specific area your effective level gets raised to a certain minimum assuming you're below that level (eg. Tier 1 the minimum in scenarios and open RvR areas was 8, so if you're levels 1-7 you get a temporary boost to your hit points and your existing abilities get scaled up to a level 8's power). You don't get any of the new abilities you'd have if you were that level, but it does a good job of preventing you from getting stomped and allowing you to contribute.
On top of that, if you're above a certain level (say, level 15 which is in the middle of Tier 2 progression) and you go down to a lower zone's RvR area you get turned into a chicken with 1 hit point. Quite the deterrant to ganking.
I have no clue how the open RvR servers are going to work though, the Beta server I was on was using the Core ruleset.
@Stefson - the gear is nice, but it's not the "be all, end all" to the game. I ran around in a mix of whites/greens and did fine, and I ran around with a few epics and wasn't whomping people. It seems to scale well so you won't get absolutely stomped if you don't have the best stuff, which is very encouraging.
That's not to say that the gear is useless - just that I never felt the need to get the absolute best stuff in order to be competative, if that makes sense.
Ask Massively goes to WAR
Oct 18th 2008 11:34AM (Massively)Yes, PQ's can be grindy - but not all PQ's are created equal. I've had some very memorable experiences with the better ones, and the differences between "kill X then Y then Z" and PQ's that have different mechanics tossed in (even when it boils down to much the same end result) can be night and day.
If you're just solo or duo grinding out Stage 1's, PQ's are going to blow.
If you've got a group and can finish out the whole thing (or multiple different ones ideally) the influence goes a lot faster and the grind is fairly well minimized.
Beyond all this, WAR's grind is a lot better hidden so far, for me, then WoW's grind ever was. Not having to wait until I'm at the top of a PvP level bracket to participate is huge as it opens up so many more options for playing the game.
Is there a grind? Of course there is - every MMO to date has had a grind associated with it, it's how companies get you to re-up your sub. The only question is which grind you prefer. For me, so far, WAR's grind is a lot less painful and I'm enjoying myself along the way (which is a far cry from the pain of trying to level another WoW alt, but that's probably due to me just burning out on the game - that's fine, happens to most folks eventually).
I think the biggest pull for me to WAR is the lessening on the structure of the game (hear me out). In WoW, it's conceivable that you could play every single part of the game with one set of 25 people. That tends to lend itself to guilds that become very cliquish seeing how there's no reason for them to ever have to work together. LK is going to see groups as small as 10 being able to go through everything in one form or another (though you'd miss out on some stuff, of course). It just started feeling very "old boys club" where egos and e-peens were running amok over a video game.
In WAR, the endgame has me very interested considering you're going to have to work as an entire realm to get things done. Sure, that's not everyone's cup of tea (and for good reason, I get that a lot of people don't want to have to work with some of the... less than desirable elements that you can run across in these games). For me though, the sense of community over guild is very appealing. So far the number of idiots I've run across has been far fewer (they're still there mind you... ) and maybe I've just lucked out so far but the community overall has been far more open and co-operative as a whole. It's a very subtle difference, but when you can't go hide after a cross-server BG because you're in that Scenario with people that are on your same server people tend to ease up on the stupidity a bit.
So is the game perfect? Of course not - no game has been or will ever be perfect. No game can ever appeal to everyone across the board, because everyone wants different things. For me WAR is a better collection of elements right now than WoW is, for others it'll be WoW over WAR. Neither game is clearly superior though because they are different enough to appeal to different aspect of our desires as gamers.
/soapbox
Anti-Aliased: Do you actually want to play the game anymore?
Sep 12th 2008 12:33PM (Massively)I know once I'm done in this zone that I've got to head to this other zone next, and then there's this zone after that - not to mention the time sink that is actually gearing up a fresh 70 and polishing off the professions.
It's just lost the glitter for me. Now, lots of people enjoy the gameplay, and that's cool - the game has 10 mil subs for a reason after all. I've just grown tired of the "carrot on a stick" approach to endgame content. It started feeling like I was running on a treadmill for the sake of running on a treadmill.
I really wish that, instead of vertical progression game developers would concentrate on horizontal progression (similar to how Guild Wars was - at least for the first couple expansions, I dunno haven't played that game in awhile since I got sucked into WoW a few years back). When BC hit, once my wife and I got our main characters to 70 we rolled two alts and went through the BE lands (tauren alts no less) just to see the new content.
Not all new content has to be at the high end of gameplay. I think a lot of people enjoy the leveling process (not all, but a lot) as long as there's something new to be seen and to do.
Personally, I plan on playing WAR for awhile. I enjoy being able to jump into PvP while questing to break things up right from the start, I enjoy the PQ's - at times there seems to almost be too much to do in the game (which is a good thing IMO). I also want to level up 3 characters, because there are 3 completely different stories to go through in totally different lands.
I love the idea posted above about taking old raid content and raising it up to the level cap - if Blizz had done that I think you'd see a lot less burnout. Give players choices, don't force them down a very specific path of "Raid this, then you can start raiding this, then you can start raiding this... " - make it more open and people wouldn't get nearly as bored as fast. Add in a reason for people to play through the game again by giving them entirely new content to level through (past level 20) and you've got a winner.
Ask a WAR Beta Tester: Greenskins and Chaos and Dark Elves, oh my
Aug 28th 2008 3:27PM (Massively)That's fine, I actually liked the distinction.
It would be nice to have some quests that direct you to the Warcamps though, much like every PQ seems to have a quest or two associated with them. You can't shake a stick without getting a quest to go into a PQ zone, but finding the Warcamps can be difficult until you notice the trick - just head to the big RvR zone on the map, there's sure to be a camp or two nearby. ;)
I did the same thing Dan did with my Chosen and it was pretty rewarding being one of maybe 3 or 4 tanks around. That's something I'm seriously considering come launch.
IGDA calls Mythic 'disrespectful' for not crediting all Warhammer devs
Aug 26th 2008 11:10AM (Massively)1 - We don't know the full details. It could be there were hard-working contributers that left two months ago that didn't get credit, or it could be a couple of guys that spent half the day in the breakroom and left six months into the development pipeline. Odds are a little from collumn A and a little from collumn B.
2 - It may be poor form, but it's definately not criminal. In the software industry (any part of the software industry, not just gaming) you sign an employment agreement up front that says all work you do is 100% the property of the company you do it for. As a developer/coder you don't own any of that work, you get a paycheck and that's it.
I'm lead to understand that this is pretty common in the games industry. Considering you've got projects that last 3-5 years, that's a very long time with a massive staff list to keep track of. People would come and go on a project that long, it's just a fact of life. There's definately a line to be drawn or the credit list would be insane (joe blow worked on one program for three weeks and then left - does he get full credit?). I kind of like the idea posted above about putting in a list of "deserters" along with how long they were on the project, but that's definately in a perfect world. In the real world you've got people trying to do things like clean up code, add last minute polish, push PR events, and everything else at the last minute. I doubt the credit list exactly has top billing on the 'to-do' list.
Is it right? No, not necessarily - it really depends on the circumstances which we've already established just can't be known by us. We could be correct in saying that there's some shadiness going on. Or, Ms MacLean might be a tad overzealous. We simply don't know.
I doubt this is anything new though, and it could simply be that the industry's workers are tired of not getting credit for their efforts. They might have chosen Mythic as their line in the sand, or maybe Mythic took it to another level.
Too many questions, not enough details or answers.
Ask a WAR Beta Tester: Let's get this show on the road!
Aug 23rd 2008 2:14AM (Massively)The nice thing is you really don't suffer going to a different racial area. You can still train, the quests and PQ loot are still tailored to your class, there's really no need to head back to your own racial zone that I've seen so far unless you want to. The entire game is set up to be extremely flexable which is a great breath of fresh air.
New cinematic Warhammer trailer pulls out all the stops
Aug 21st 2008 8:17PM (Massively)The WoW cinematic was really cool, don't get me wrong - but it wasn't anything I didn't expect already. It was Arthas, and a big undead dragon, with a nice voiceover by Arthas' dad - but it had absolutely nothing to link you into the game. No character at all - just a raid boss' backstory that anyone who knows the lore already knows.
The WAR cinematic had me on the edge of my seat. It had dark humor, it told a story, and it featured the characters of the game and not some raid boss. That was a cinematic based off gameplay - a city siege no less. I *still* laugh every time I see that ork hit the rooftop during the Marauder/Shadow Warrior opening, not to mention the squig herder.
I dunno, both are excellent but I feel the WAR one just had more character to it.
Ask Massively: Oh great, another "WoW Killer"
Aug 21st 2008 6:09PM (Massively)WAR and WoW fanatics lose sight of this, in the end WAR doing well is a win-win situation for everyone playing both games.
I'm leaving WoW for awhile to play WAR, I'm loving the beta and I really hope that the game does well. Not to kill WoW, because I think WoW is an excellent PvE game - in order to continue pushing both companies to bring more and more content into their games. That's the payoff right there.
Everyone should be hoping for record high sales of WAR, for a good amount of subscriptions to stick, and for WotLK to fall short on its projected sales figures (though I won't hold my breath on the last one... ). If all that happens you'll be seeing plenty of great additions to both games in the years to come - mark my words.
The Daily Grind: Is WAR the WoW killer?
Aug 20th 2008 6:34PM (Massively)WAR's graphics are actually quite nice - they settle in between AoC's high-end and WoW's cartoon style. You don't need a bleeding edge system to run it, the minimum requirements are actually quite attainable by most people that have bought a PC within the past five years, and should run well on a system put together within the past two. That's not exactly what I'd call "bleeding edge" technology.
WoW's time sinks have pretty much made it so that if you're not willing to put a significant amount of time into the game (what most people would consider 'hard core'), you won't get far at max level. Elitism runs rampant with the nature of the cookie cutter specs and specific gear requirements. It may have begun as a great game for casuals, but it's steadily moved away from that beginning.
We'll have to wait and see how WAR's launch goes off, so far I'd call it more polished than other recent titles but of course it won't have the same sheen as WoW with its four+ years of development.
WoW's a good game, don't get me wrong - it has low system specs, tons of end game content in the form of raids, and plenty of neat little 'extras' like the holiday events and vanity pets along with a massive social structure that will keep many people playing for years no matter what other MMO's come out. There are people that are borderline fanatical about the game despite the flaws that are there (and yes, as good as it is the game does have its share of flaws as well).
There are others though that are either tired of certain things, or are looking for something new that will try WAR out. If the launch is good I don't know if we'll be seeing them coming back "to their old, comfortable characters". Some will, some won't - only time will tell how it all shakes out.
Ask a WAR Beta Tester: Let's get this show on the road!
Aug 20th 2008 2:41PM (Massively)If you go into an RvR specific area your effective level gets raised to a certain minimum assuming you're below that level (eg. Tier 1 the minimum in scenarios and open RvR areas was 8, so if you're levels 1-7 you get a temporary boost to your hit points and your existing abilities get scaled up to a level 8's power). You don't get any of the new abilities you'd have if you were that level, but it does a good job of preventing you from getting stomped and allowing you to contribute.
On top of that, if you're above a certain level (say, level 15 which is in the middle of Tier 2 progression) and you go down to a lower zone's RvR area you get turned into a chicken with 1 hit point. Quite the deterrant to ganking.
I have no clue how the open RvR servers are going to work though, the Beta server I was on was using the Core ruleset.
Ask a WAR Beta Tester: Let's get this show on the road!
Aug 20th 2008 1:32PM (Massively)That's not to say that the gear is useless - just that I never felt the need to get the absolute best stuff in order to be competative, if that makes sense.