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Reader Comments (181)

Posted: Mar 28th 2012 10:02AM epilepticemu said

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"Could the tutorials be better? Sure. Could PvE missions be more engaging? Absolutely. Does either of these failings, or numerous others, detract from what is the genre's premier emergent experience?

Nope."

Except that obviously they do.

But please let me know when they rework the new player initiation experience.

Posted: Mar 28th 2012 10:53AM SnarlingWolf said

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@epilepticemu

Exactly.

Reasons I DON'T play EvE:

1)It sucks to be a new player, totally and utterly sucks
2)It certainly does feel like a job
3)There ARE a bunch of *** playing it who like to try and get people to kill themselves and ruin peoples lives
4)It is like reading through excel spreadsheets all day
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 11:00AM Jef Reahard said

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@epilepticemu

Well, no they really don't, lol.

They may keep you from playing, but that doesn't mean the folks who are playing aren't having the premier emergent experience. There's simply no other game that gives you as much freedom as EVE does.

I think it's unlikely that they'll revamp the tutorials much beyond what they've already done. They're reaching out to casuals via DUST, though, as I think they recognize that some people don't have the time (or the desire) to learn new stuff in order to participate in New Eden.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 11:13AM fallwind said

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@Jef Reahard "but that doesn't mean the folks who are playing aren't having the premier emergent experience"

that is like saying that people who get their fun on from dressing up in suits of armor and swinging foam swords aren't getting their fun on. Of course they are... that however is a very big difference from saying that EVERYONE can get their fun on doing that.

Eve is niche, always has been, always will be. Be happy that it is your niche and accept that there are a LOT of people that don't like that. Saying "but that doesn't matter" completely ignores the fact that other people don't like the same things you do.

So, before you say that things like a crappy intro, boring as snot combat, spreadsheets in space, and obfuscation for obfuscation's sake don't matter... go put on that suit of hand made chain-mail and pick up that foam sword.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 11:30AM Jef Reahard said

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@fallwind

Nah, that's not what I said at all. I just mean that EVE has more freeform gameplay than any other MMO. I wasn't talking about whether you enjoy that or not but rather about the fact of the options available to you for gameplay relative to other titles.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 11:33AM epilepticemu said

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@Jef Reahard Oh, I guess I misinterpreted the purpose of the post. I thought you were talking to people who don't already love Eve. You're right, if you're preaching to the choir, those issues don't matter. But i'm not sure why you'd be intentionally preaching to the choir.

Also, suggesting that Dust will satisfy "casuals," may be true, but for the purposes of Eve, seems totally irrelevant. The people that WANT to like Eve, but can't get into it (irrelevant or unsolvable according to you) still won't be interested in Dust.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 11:34AM (Unverified) said

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@SnarlingWolf

Answering your questions:

1) It doesn't suck to be a new player. There are corporation open for new players, like EVE-UNI for EVE General and Agony Unleashed for a PVP school. Also, the game improved a lot in the new player experience.
Another misconception is that a new player will never be good as an old player. You can kill a 3 years old character with a 4 months character, as long as you learn how and when to engage someone.

2) No, it doesn't, unless you want to be the richiest person in New Eden. The game really pays for your dedication, unlike any other casual game *cof cof WoW cof*.

3) Just like IRL and just like any other MMO.

4) Yes if you want to feel like a factory boss and have good chain production. You'll have a good time in EVE doing missions, Incursions and PVP.

Give it a try again, bring two or three friend and learn together. You'll see how fun and awesome is to play EVE with friends. Or even foreveralone.jpg like I do.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 11:47AM Jef Reahard said

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@epilepticemu

Nah you didn't misinterpret, the OP was directed at people who don't like it already. My opinion is that those issues you mentioned are overblown. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, and if I can figure out EVE's tutorials, anyone can. It's more of a question of if it's worth it to you to spend the time and effort it takes to do so.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 12:05PM Jef Reahard said

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@epilepticemu

Forgot to add that the reason I brought up DUST is because it excites me that CCP is expanding the world of EVE instead of just making another game. They could've just made a sci-fi shooter and probably made a few bucks, but by tying it in with EVE's economy (and hopefully at some point improving on the orbital strikes and moment-to-moment gameplay crossover), they're expanding the virtual world of New Eden as a whole.

And thereby making it more accessible to people who may be interested but don't want to commit to learning EVE.

So, not really irrelevant.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 12:13PM SnarlingWolf said

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@(Unverified)

Can't really say no it doesn't because I have tried EvE and those really are the reasons I won't touch the game.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 12:21PM fallwind said

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@Jef Reahard "My opinion is that those issues you mentioned are overblown."

That was exactly my point... to YOU they are overblown, don't matter, and are a minor issue compared to the massive piles of awesome that is Eve...

But to other people they are spot on, huge problems, and a massive blocker to the huge pile of fail that is Eve.

You might not care that you are only a spaceship or a guy locked in a room smaller than my last appartment. You might not care that the tutorials are pathetically incomplete (did you know they don't even tell you that you can double click in space and head in that direction? I spent a month thinking I could only fly in a direction if there was something there to align on). You might even not care that the community is actively encouraged to be toxic to new players.

But to the rest of us, we do care.

And that's my opinion.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 12:36PM Daeths said

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@SnarlingWolf I concur. I tried multiple times to get in to it, but the new player experience is so... dull. The missions are dry, i have to wait to get the skills to fly ant thing decent and if i want to do market or production I'm squeezed into a few small time items because people with highly researched BPOs and perfect skills take anything decently priced and eliminate any margin a non-highly invested new player. As for mining? yea, sitting in one place and jet canning is sooo fun! And when your not strip mining and in high sec the profits are sooo good!

Admit it, the barrier of entry into any of the fun stuff is prohibitively high and extremely punishing of mistakes with permanent ship destruction. If eve really wanted a good chance of getting new players into the game and staying with any reliability there is a great deal they could do for new players.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 12:44PM oddshrub said

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@epilepticemu for it to work it would force you to join a player corp.

Eve is very old, it's from when MMOs evolved around playign with other people, and as such it's a very hard experience to get into if you're used to soloing your way to the "endgame".

The irony of it is that if you actually start by joining a newbie friendly corp, the learning curve isn't there at all but if you don't join a player corp you could literally be a newb forever.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 6:29PM Skyydragonn said

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@fallwind
Your entire argument boils down toa simple. I don't want to think, ask questions or LEARN, you basically expect an MMO to hold your hand step by step through every aspect of the game. I agree with Jef (rarely) on some points and disagree on others. His point is that just becuase one aspect of the game might not be toy our liking it may well be worth voerlooking that flaw (in the users opinion) for the sake of a greater MMO experience.
As for the PvP ganking. Again take the time to learn about how PvP engagements work, and it is completely feasible for a new(ish) player to kill an experienced player. The most common cuase of newbie death is ignorance of the situation on a tactical level. IE attacking battleships with a basic fit frigate.

I personally ahve a 6 month old account witha single character. I joined a good corp that is now part of the -RZR- Alliance. my 6 month odl character who was not focused on any one aspect but trained on an as-needed basis. Is now out killing 3bill ISk ships ina 65mil ISK battlecruiser. WHy, because I took the time to learn how things worked instead of relying on an internet strategy guide to walk me through every aspect of the 'gameplay' which begs the question are you really 'playing" a game when your followinga step-by-step strategy guide on how to defeat an encounter?
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 7:15PM Graill440 said

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@Jef Reahard

Freedom you say, i wondered what you called.....it. Laugh.
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Posted: Mar 28th 2012 10:08PM BluegrassGeek said

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@Skyydragonn Nice ad homs.

Look, I play a game to have simple fun. Not to do a job. I know some people find the challenge and grinding fun, but I don't.

I tried EVE and just had no fun. The tutorial was barely adequate, and basically dumped me into the sandbox with absolutely no direction. I HATE pure sandbox games. They bore me to tears because I play games for a minor distraction, or to hear a story. Not to bash my head against trying to make the game do what I want, or come up with a story that gets trashed when someone decides not to role-play. I got bored of MU*s for the same reason. If I want to make my own story, I'll WRITE one. Not tool around in someone else's sandbox, hoping to find something interesting. I like games with clear missions, so I have a goal before me, and get an interesting story to go with it. Not setting arbitrary goals in a game that has no goals besides "stay alive, make money."

I have no interest in world PvP, so I don't WANT to "kill an experienced player" or learn tactics just to survive. Call me a carebear if you want. I just have no interest in random PvP. I'll sometimes jump into a PvP match just for the sheer fun of getting killed in spectacular ways... but I don't want that when I'm just trying to finish a mission or earn some gold/credits/whatevercurrencythegameuses.

I have no interest in joining a corporation. In other games, I only joined guilds for the social aspects. Not for endgame content, not for running missions for rare drops, and certainly not just to SURVIVE the game long enough to enjoy myself.

If I want a challenge, I'll play a game made for a specific challenge. Not for hours of mindless flying and mining followed by randomly getting attacked by someone in a much better ship than me.

In short, EVE just doesn't have anything that appeals to me outside the whole "flying a spaceship" bit. Insult me if you want, say that "I don't want to think, ask questions or LEARN" if you want to be an ass. I can do all those things in a more structured game, and have MUCH more fun.

Enjoy your game, but don't crap on me because I don't find it entertaining.
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Posted: Mar 29th 2012 8:26PM (Unverified) said

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@Daeths As far as finding market opportunities, there are constantly new ones opening up in EvE just like a real economy. People/corps/alliances relocate or collapse and leave windows for people to take advantage of.

Can you topple the industry titans in Jita or New York within weeks? Of course not but you can go and find under served markets in Ohio or Solitude and build up a business and a network and given time you can compete with them. In the mean time its just a matter of covering your ship loses and office rent payments.

While I'm not super active anymore I found a nice forgotten corner of 0.0 where I can make plenty of isk. It wasn't handed to me but I did some research and put in a bit of effort and just living in this area is more rewarding to me due to it being something I have built up myself instead of following a predetermined plan.

As for skill training I have never gotten this issue. I mean in any non skill based game there is still some hard limit on how fast you can possibly unlock new levels or abilities. They may vary based on your play time and emphasis but there still is a hard lower limit. With eve its the same its just in the mean time you can be spending your time any way you want while still progressing forward on your skill goal. What exactly is so terrible about that? TBH one of my least favorite mechanics in EvE, grinding faction standings is set up just like leveling in other games and I hate it.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2012 11:24AM AltarofScience said

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@Daeths

This is something of a pet peeve of mine. Almost all the things people hate about EvE are totally necessary to get the parts of it that are amazing.

The idea that there are a bunch of easy fixes out there is just ridiculous. Do you think CCP wouldn't fix those things if they could while maintaining the game's integrity?

People whine incessantly about long travel times. Well, as a veteran War Facts player I can tell you that long travel times are incredibly important to any mmorts. EvE is basically Warring Factions in 3d with way fewer glitches, blugs, and exploits.
In warring factions you have to do partial differential equations to optimize research. The game literally comes with multiple built in spreadsheets.
If you took out the long travel times in EvE nullsec would basically have lasted a year tops before some group of players just owned it.
Long travel times counteract ffapvp because you can't just roll over your enemy in a single week.
As for mining, in theory they could make mining more engaging like a minigame, but eventually you would get tired of the minigame just as much as sitting with the laser.
All of the best crafting games have something akin to EvE's mining. Have you ever spent 8 hours straight in constant motion running the same optimal wood gathering path over and over in ATITD to get the 20000 wood for charcoal?
Do you know what uses a lot of spreadsheets? Industry in real life. Because they are necessary to deal with organization on large scales.
Theoretically you could automate a lot of this stuff. But with FFA PvP for ships, if you automated mining and hauling ships PvPers would slaughter you. And EvE is a one ship one person game.

In the end some people do not have the time or desire to do what it takes to have epic intersolar conflicts. And thats fine. But its irritating when every other random gamer thinks they have quick fix to every complex problem.
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Posted: Apr 1st 2012 8:34AM KDolo said

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@Jef Reahard

Your problem is that you, time and again, suggest that people are too stupid to enjoy freeform gameplay.
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Posted: Apr 3rd 2012 5:09PM Dril said

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@KDolo

Why is that a problem? (And, to be fair, I think you're largely oversimplifying his arguments.)

It's either that or they just can't be arsed. And there are lots of people, in my experience and just from looking at these comments, that fit both categories.
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