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Posted: Mar 29th 2012 3:18PM (Unverified) said

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Few facts for people to roll around in, since we need some right now.

Fact - Apology, 10 billion ISK in reperations, and a comment from the pilot in question saying it wasn't actually a big deal.
Fact - Last year, his Alliance panel address was sober, and considered 'dull' for being so.
Fact - People reportedly saying 'I watched the video', did you watch the entire panel? Past panels?
Fact - The alliance panel is put forth as a boasting platform, players are encouraged to be their persona and not the player, giving glorious recounts of the years history. That 'The Mittani' and not Alex showed up to speak should be noted, for good or bad.
Fact - Sadly, this could all be a big ploy created by the goons to rile up and troll the entire game society. Odd that this becomes a platform to 'right' his reputation with the goons.
Fact - CCP should not have live-streamed the alliance panel.
Fact - 28% of the population live in null-sec or low-sec, where The Mittani and his ilk thrive. 67% live in high-sec. This shows easily why there are such start comment differences. People in HighSec that know where not to go rarely, if ever, get ganked. People in NullSec rarely, if ever get ganked due to alliance presence and muscle to back them up. Both sides know low-sec gets you killed, and near low sec gets you killed, this is where most new players accidentally venture to that gets them ganked.
Final Fact - The Mittani actually rarely, if ever, logs into the game. A ban does nothing as they already moved CEO approval to be done another way, so he could get banned and still the corp moves forward. 30 days or Life is the same to someone who doesn't need to play to be effective. You are trying to ban the general from the battlefield that he won't be on anyway.

My opinion here is that if we judge all eve players off The Mittani, we are calling all wow players hardcore raiders. Also, The Mittani is first and foremost a politician. There will never be a way of knowing what is true or sincere, or if the entire situation was fabricated as a way to mobilize his base and save face with the goons. Turn this into another thing commonly put in front by media. A Politician saying 'ban/approve gay marriage', inciting chaos and vitriole amongst his apponents while riling up his base. Poliiticans do this with hot button issues all the time. Suicide/Cyber bullying is a massive one, people being surprised means they are discounting just how politically astute The Mittani Is.

Posted: Mar 29th 2012 3:39PM Lenn said

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@(Unverified) Fact: a few of your facts are either opinion or conjecture.
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Posted: Mar 29th 2012 3:56PM (Unverified) said

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@Lenn
Fact 1 - has been proven and confirmed by The Wiz.
Fact 2 - can easily be confirmed by asking any attendee or any transcription, he only have a history of the goons, not a telling of victories.
Fact 3 - While not exactly a fact, the actual videos posted on the gaming news sites show only his clip, not the full, very long panel. It is a valid question.
Fact 4 - From the brochure - "ALLIANCE LEADER PANEL
Hear directly from representatives of the major powers
currently active in New Eden – where they are headed
and why they are doing it" - Also note, if you ever watch it, the amount of alcohol on the table.
Fact 5 - Is conjecture based in past behavior, so fact, no, but possibility yes. I do agree though, should have gone at the bottom. Makes it no less important though.
Fact 6 - Nor should WoW have live-streamed the controversial things it did last blizzcon. This event was not properly vetted for the audience it would hit.
Fact 7 - Those numbers are exact per CCP on Active accounts. https://p.twimg.com/Ajc6KNBCQAAT9my.png was posted by a CCP Dev via Twitter very recently.

So sorry, a single fact was conjecture. Not three however.
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Posted: Mar 29th 2012 6:58PM Space Cobra said

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@(Unverified)

Your "Facts" are too simple.

"Fact" 1) The Apology and reparations are not trusted. You, yourself, said the Alex/Mittani is a "politician". Sure, he gets some points for giving such an apology/money, but not much in light of other facts that have come out. Also, unless Gianturco is a mind-reader, he did not know if the guy was sincere or not and *assumed* he was lying. Even this has multiple layers of not being acceptable, no matter the circumstance, irregardless of if the "victim" was a victim or not or something else. Even proving/confirmation is not really concrete from what I've seen of the "evidence", and still, that does not matter in this case.

Fact 2) He was boring last year, so what? He gave a good history lecture of the goons. It was informative but not "entertaining". So, he gets drunk? I am assuming you know that the previous speaker was a "hit" in his drunken state and people have rightfully speculated "Mr. Ego" (Gianturco) was jealous about this state of affairs of not being as "popular" among his group. So he drank and tried to "strut". That's the REAL fact: He was jealous and wanted more attention than his fellow Goon speaker and tried to "one-up" things. Well, he got attention alright...

Fact 3) A fair assumption, but some of us have, especially in light of recent events and that still does little to diminish what Alex/Mittani has done, especially in lite of the public perception of EvE.

"Fact" 4) Boasting Platform? Do you have the FanFest schedule that says that? That says one should "be in character?" I think you are confusing things and, really, this is not relevant. (Also, your little response to Lenn still does not say specifically, "be in your in-game character" and really, seeing alcohol on the table is not relevant.) The fact is he was filmed. The fact is that while he could hide in his game and treat it like some boy's club with ass-slapping towels, it is not. If Gianturco is so sure of himself and composed, why should he care about outside opinion? He was there to boost his ego anyway. And really, he publicly broke his own "rule" of "it's just a game" as opposed to privately breaking it numerous times before by encouraging people to harass the victim, which we can assume he still did not know the specifics of. Also, you are telling me someone supposedly in the "legal profession" wanted to hide behind a persona? This is BS, especially in light of his "sorrowful apology", if we are to believe his sincerity of that.

"Fact" 5) Yes, this could all be one big Troll/Prank by Alex and the goons, so what? He could pull the, "I planned this all along! HaHa!" card and he'd still be guilty and not change one bit of internet opinion on his actions. In fact, such actions would hurt EvE and CCP even more in the public eye. The Fact is Alex has a history of pursuing players offline/out-of-game and that isn't conjecture.

"Fact 6") Again, so what? They did and they always do stream. Maybe they won't in the future, cutting off their player base to join in the events from afar (and making the game "unique" in the MMO world in their eyes). That is not a fact, but a cautionary tale to "hide the evidence". WoW shouldn't have streamed it, but you never know what will go on with "live TV". Maybe flying monkeys will invade next time, stealing all the booze, and we will sorely miss such a happening!

Fact 7) I can't argue that. Maybe you are trying to stand up for the EvE community, but you should read a few comments here: We are more focused on the punishment of one guy and his sincerity. A few of us are not too trusting about GoonSwarm either. A few of us may bash EvE, but you and the other EvE-guests need to stick around for all the WoW-bashing in WoW articles and SWTOR-basing in SWTOR articles and of course, the GW2 bashing. this is "old hat" here at Massively. I thought you EvE guys had thick skin?

Final Fact) I don't know about that either. This really isn't supported, either, because why would he not log into the game? He was logged in the game to gank "his victim" numerous times. He'd probably be logged in just to hang and in-game chat with his guild. What I think you mean is "he doesn't NEED to log in the game" to stay active with his guild and other in-game activities. And frankly, not "being on the battlefield" does not match his profile. How's he gonna taunt his victims and make them cry QQ tears to fill his imaginary Winnie-the-Pooh cup so he can drink out of it? No, Alex "The Mittani" Gianturco is not that type of guy. He thrives on the "pain" he causes others.

Your last paragraph also does not really apply. Alex seems to be smart, but cold and calculating. He does not quite understand the long-term ramifications. He is, like you say, "a button pusher" just like any small child (or parrot) that wants to get a reaction, he keeps pushing buttons. But push too much, and that button breaks. You are implying that he is "trolling us" or "trolling all the internet" and he may be, but then, he's getting what he wants. Why should you care? The thing is, he may be getting too much "heat" and you are hear to quench it and or whatever, but you are not as eloquent as you think you are. If Gianturco wants attention, he's got it. If he doesn't, well, he should have been "careful in what you wish for" before this, especially with his personal history.


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Posted: Mar 29th 2012 8:00PM Space Cobra said

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@Space Cobra

"Also, Gianturco is NOT a mind reader..."

Must be some other grammar mistakes in that long post. Please use caution while reading! ;p
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Posted: Mar 29th 2012 3:56PM Amlin said

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30days? That's a slap on the wrist, he'll be back and do what he'll always do on that game. This is just a pr stunt.

Posted: Mar 29th 2012 5:07PM Von Gah said

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As a former leader of an alliance and player for over 3 years, I watched the vast majority of this year's FanFest stream.

Alcohol played a major role in much of the player's behavior. Many streamed incidents of a bunch of players (and CCP employees), getting drunk for the entire player base around the world to watch.

F-bombs, S-bombs and other profanity many, many times in many segments.

A year from now a lot of these people who did the above acts are going to look back with regret at what they did. But hey, they appeared to be having a good time.

How many of them do you think don't care or didn't care about their behavior? This is a key point in my view. Mittani certainly appeared to not care one bit. The epitome of social boorishness.

Is this another case of "no publicity is bad publicity" and will CCP profit from this? Nope, EVE is "the" niche game of niche games. As one CCP presenter mentioned during his presentation, most EVE players leave the game at the 3-month mark (on average). These FanFest fallouts will do very little to improve their bottom line.

For the niche player looking for hard-core gaming, it is hard to argue against EVE. This year's FanFest had some good info, good demos, but there were those moments when alcohol and bad language just made me think "Hey! Let's all go to FanFest and get drunk!"

I do hope Mittani can retire comfortably because if any potential employer saw his behavior he wouldn't even get hired as a data entry operator.

CCP has got to be pretty disappointed right now at what happened. They also showed a lack of good decision-making and should never have allowed alcohol on-stage for any reason.

Posted: Mar 29th 2012 10:56PM Donau said

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@Von Gah
He's a DC lawyer, I suspect he has some money.
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Posted: Mar 30th 2012 5:06PM Humbug said

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@Donau
You sure about that? What firm does he supposedly work for?
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Posted: Mar 30th 2012 6:03PM Humbug said

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@Donau
You sure about that? What firm does he supposedly work for?
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Posted: Mar 29th 2012 9:13PM (Unverified) said

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@Space Cobra
This is why facts must be simple. You are applying emotion to the facts, and skewing them. This does not make you wrong. I speak more from experience of knowing my enemy. And this enemy, I know. Since you left it in the same format, let's keep it that way. Also, an edit button would indeed be great some day. Chrome catches spelling, just not grammar.

1) I didn't say whether they could be or not. They could be sincere or a political ploy. In EVE though, we know it doesn't matter. More on that in a later one.
2) This was more to showcase what the expected behavior was. He tried to be 'above the fray', and was ridiculed for it. We in eve know what is more dangerous than the goons is the goons ego, especially the head goon.
3) Actually, my point is indeed the public perception. This point is one of those cases is the major nullsec alliances actually are that face that gets put on eve. All of the Alliance null-sec were very, very borderline, called names, insulted and ridiculed people. Only one stepped over the line, and as this is a cold and calculating individual, it's a good bet he stepped over only to feed his ego and 'one up' the others. That said, going over transcripts, it wasn't hard to one-up the others with what he said.
4) Again, expected behavior. A good analogy here to make the example is going to a sports bar and showing up as the one person wearing the other teams jersey. You go to the bar expecting to watch the game and have fun, and soon find out you are in for a night of ridicule. Bar owner can't really do much. Same here with CCP. I suspect the 30-day ban is more actually to showcase The Mittani, and detract from all the other comments maid on the alliance panel. He makes a great fall guy to distract away from the nullsec behavior.
5) On the contrary, I think this will help CCP. This is almost what they have been waiting for. A full on goon invasion to Jita gives them the perfect ability to respond in-game and show the players that no matter how big an alliance gets, ego or otherwise, CONCORD will win. I would invite everyone to watch what happens that day with a front row seat at Jita. Never issue an ultimatum to game developers, they like that because they control the rules.
6) While true, this year FanFest was unique in the Sony representation. Again, though, it could all work to their benefit. If you live in eve, you know the big problem with eve is it's perception, only followed at a distant second by it's UI. Sony dollars lets them swing a wider bat, and they have actively worked against goons in the past with the BoB scandals. The only ones truly more calculating than The Mittany is the EVE devs.
7) Ah, you think I'm standing up for it. No, no, I merely enjoy a heated debate. I just saw many EVE players leaving out facts that need to be in place to set the tone for the EVE player responses. As freaky as it may sound...well, I'll leave that to the end, it might be a bit enlightening about what game EVE really is.
8) He actually makes it a very, very big point in what he does that he is very, very rarely in game. My earlier point stands, he is their General. He gets his rocks off on victories. He is the planner, the strategist. I know the type well because I am the same type. This is why he does out of game attacks, because with a single one he does more damage in game than any titan has ever done. He's toppled stations, ruined characters, and removed accounts off the face of eve. That's not something you can do if you stay in game all the time. He's also not playing the same game I am, nor the same game most the goons are even playing.

There is this great perception out there about eve players. Allow me to dispel that. I'm not even talking about the griefers perception.

Believe it or not, your average eve player is a high-sec player. They enjoy missioning, the occasional incusrion, perhaps some market speculation and trading. They exist in a small corp of people they have met and enjoyed playing with. Perhaps every once in a while they get really adventurous and war-dec another corp! (That they usually talk to ahead of time about it and it's basically just a BG to the game)

In truth, they live in their own little bubble. Many first hear of the goons in local chat, or through a friend that doesn't play. They hear 'Your game is full of griefers!', and you try to recall the last time you were popped in highsec that wasn't you being dumb (Can-flipping), and you can't recall it. I myself have been a avid miner for years, jumping corp to corp, never staying one place long, usually renting out my refining services. Most don't even really understand what a war-dec is, much less what goes on in 0.0.

They really are two games, with a giant wall in the middle known as low-sec (only 7% of the population 'lives' here, and these are truly the lowest of low. Many players have their first true pod-kill death there.) and it actually has a massive 'DO NOT ENTER' sign when you look at 'Kills over 24 hours'. Many players learn this the hard way, and most when they first run into it leave if they haven't made friends yet.

Eve is, in all actuallity, Six single worlds. Each world really has almost no idea on the common-folk level the other exists.

Wormhole Land - Players know corps live there, but no idea why or for what reason. Most will never enter one uncloaked.
NullSec Land - Lawless land of gankers and griefers. You can rent space for a month or two to make lots fast, but you know what you are getting into. Most will stay out
LowSec Land - Also known as where ships go to die. Less-safe than null-sec. The first advice you usually get is how to set your route-settings so you never get taken through low-sec
Nowhere land - You find a system and just stay, never really leaving. May be the actual silent majority in eve, but data has never been brought forth as to how many active accounts make home and never leave.
Trade Hubs - The last two lands, each with their own flavor. Jita is Jita. It's the Ogrimmar of trade hubs. So many people there, that's where the scammers love to be. The other four trade hubs are only 1/4 as active, but this is where those of us that want to play ships in space usually stay around at. Plenty of Corps, Mining, and while the occasional griefer shows up, it's rare as we are quite far from goon action.

Folks from the game that the last two worlds encompass are the ones coming here going 'What? The perception is way off!'. They get defensive because someone they probably have never heard or cared about is making the game they love look bad. This is probably the game that the massively guy that made a 'Why I play eve' article seems out of touch. Most of us are very out of touch with Null/Worm/Low alliances. The ones coming and saying you are all wimps and need to man up and play eve, well, at this point I hope you don't have to guess where they come from.

The main point in my opinion part is this. It's all far too convenient timing on all parts. This wreaks of what in america we would call 'An October surprise'. We HighSec players see this for what it really is. The loudest voice in NullSec has called out CCP, spat in it's face, and is beating it's chest. They believe themselves the lifeblood of EVE. We know the 30-day ban wasn't a slap on the wrist, it was a slap in the face. It was a 'Bring it.' by CCP. They don't want to make a martyr out of him, they want to humiliate and beat his alliance into the ground with everyone watching. Could they take in-game action against a CSM Chairman who 'championed' the people in CSM6? Not likely. Could they take action against an alliance lead by a perma-banned character? Maybe but you'd be taking on the equivilent of a anti-hero ascended to god-hood.

Can you take action against someone who publicly defaced the entire population, says CCP threw him under the bus, and prepares a campaign to circumvent death mechanics by using numbers to disrupt the 'beating heart of high-sec'? Abso-friggin-lutely. While the drama is far from over, every eve player knows the best is truly yet to come.

Final note: Quite a good debate so far SpaceCobra, which is my intent. I'm not looking to berate or anger, just understand. I'm one of those from the non Low/Null/Worm EVE. To us, getting griefed is akin to someone training 20 mobs on you when you heal or AoE, it happens, you ignore it and move on. We don't understand the comments of the posters giving negative reviews of a game that we just don't see. You actually seem like you'd be very interesting to have an actual conversation about this over, since in truth at the heart of this, we believe the same thing, that this situation is wrong, we just see it from different perspectives.

Posted: Mar 30th 2012 10:15AM Space Cobra said

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@(Unverified)

Pretty good and informative so far; I am going to wrap up with something in the last paragraph in relation to this and the "outside world of EvE".

While I may've replied emotionally to your list of facts, I saw many other facts lacking; basically a cherry-picking of facts. However, reading this new response, I think I see what may/may not be "going on" here and a more clear view of your point/warning.

So, you've seem to done 2 things :

1) Explain more about EvE and its community

2) Explain about the possible Metagame brewing here (and your suspicion on it).

Clarifying the first part is good, but it can be info-overload for some. The second part, is a part of the EvE thing and, in some ways, fits in with my own question of, "Why is CCP so concerned over this particular incident now and not others in the past?" At least, a possibility to consider.

If this is a "private/Personal grudge/game" by CCP against one man or group and if Alex/Mttaniis a "fall guy" (or even if he put himself in that position in the first place or manuevered himself and certain evidence to deal with his new-found role) is ... well, it doesn't look good, at least in the public eye at large.

Let's further address your suspicion. From what is known, former goons are among the devs. Maybe they still are goons or maybe they got slapped and now do not help (or fired). I certainly do not know. But at this time, the "evidence" could go either way. You see a Modus Operandi in CCP's actions and a possible "set-up" and possibly Alex/Mittani is a "victim" of them, but because of his personality, fell into it quite readily and faces more because of his future plans on Jita?

That may be true, but you also have to look at prevailing events. Alex/Mittani has an ego. Alcohol is always at these events. Alex wanted to "one-up" his fellow goon's speech from previous years. The in-flight communications to his group after the event and a few more things. You could say it was orchestrated by CCP but you could just as well say it was ochestrated by Alex/Mittani for something else...or you could say "stuff happens" and Alex faced his own "Waterloo" as the victim of his own huberis.

Perhaps SOE and the internet is being drawn into this, but really, while that can fit some perceived purpose, let's look at the internet's take with this:

It doesn't care, in that it saw the incident and it knows Alex's group. This is more a rallying point. Further more, those who are emotionally charged want a more serious ban on Alex and not just 30 days. If CCP is behind such machinations, they have still hurt their position. If they proffer this as evidence to SOE ("See, we can ban our most famous player because he broke the rules!") that is also specious and child-like on their part. SOE doesn't know Alex/Mittani and only ONE player? What about other reports of other such players? It's not very compelling evidence to give to a company if one is trying to prove they are "tough", if that is there goal (or part of the goal).

So, that only lives CCP's image and possibly Alex "The Mittani" Gianturco's image to deal with. Now, if either one wanted to achieve "something" through this in-game by bringing on the whole of the internet into it, that also sounds a bit "near-sighted". It may be possibly the reason, but either they haven't considered what it does to their public image or they do not care. You mentioned some EvE players like to play in a "bubble" in their own sector, this would be similiar, but not thinking things through. The majority of responders may not play EvE but this does color their perception of it and hurts the game (and even Gianturco). You may say Alex gets the worst of it, but CCP is not coming clean because non-EvE players don't care. They saw an injustice performed offline, even if "the victim" was suicidal or not, Alex could not have known at that time. Also, a fair number know the history of Alex and his group, even out-of-game.

It may be a masterful brilliant scheme, but CCP has also hoisted itself by its own petard in the public, non-EvE-related eye. Both have hurt themselves to this unrelated audience who does not play EvE (but may have been a victim of the Goons in other games). In the end, they may not care and go back to EvE, thumping their chests at a "successful troll", but even if things died down, it's left a mark in common psyche (which, admittedly, may be more emotional). It does seem even outside readers are tired of hearing these stories about EvE, even though they draw the same "avid-attention" of a car-wreck in life or lurid details of a murder on the TV news.

So whatever the true reason, CCP, Alex, or both have either overstepped their own plans. This is NOT good press for CCP (or EvE) to draw in future players, even if the facts are most new players of EvE can learn and avoid being ganked/taken-advantage-of/whatever-else. And even if that was Alex/Mittani's plan, its not good for him either, because of "the heat" and while he may be waiting for it to die down in the public domain (a common tactic of his), I don't think it will ever truly do so in the way he hopes for.
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Posted: Mar 30th 2012 2:08AM Marz said

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What the Mittani did was wrong and glad he got the ban.

That being said; about EVE and games in general. (Not having to do with the comments of the Mittani) In order to have a hero, you need a bad guy. Bad guys create heroes. (Not the other way around)

In most games, the Devs create the bad guys. They create a Lich King that does horrible acts of violence and killing and you have to join with your friends do defeat him.

In EVE the bad guys are those guilds like the Goons, or the pirates that gate camp you. Or that guy that flips your jet can. Players become bad guys, and other players unite and fight against them.

It is simply a matter of taste. Do you want a bad guy that has been created buy the Devs that you wipe on and die over and over until you finally defeat him. Or do you want bad guys that are players that will kill you over and over until you join up with friends and defeat them.

Posted: Mar 30th 2012 11:47AM Dunraven said

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@Marz But it has gone way beyond bad guys I mean look at this thread from the EvE forums http://tinyurl.com/7ysjsg7 In any other MMO every civil rights group in Europe would be banging down their door but somehow EvE gets a pass?

Hilmar has to make a choice no way will SONY be part of a company that is based around hate speech. If things keep going the way they are going I predict CCP will close it's doors by 2014.


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Posted: Mar 30th 2012 10:26PM Marz said

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@Dunraven

I am glad there are eve players standing up against this, however, I played EVE for for a couple years and can't remember reading that term in chat and after this controversy with the Mittani I decided to do a 14 day trial, party to see if things had really gotten worse, I haven't read that term once.

As someone who has played quite a few MMO's I have seen that people in other games regularly using a three letter word starting with G that they used as an insult or to mean lame.

The fact of the matter is, in EVE once you get in a corp you just look at corp chat. So if you see derogatory language then change corps.

So I do hope they crack down on that term misused to mean trader but I just haven't seen it and I did play for a couple years.
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Posted: Mar 30th 2012 1:40PM Ninevah said

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I gotta say that I think this guy's actions, alone, will be more detrimental to the growth of EVE than Monocle-gate was. Who wants to sign up to play a game where the players' chosen representative shows publicly that he's a griefer and a dick?

Posted: Apr 2nd 2012 2:09PM StClair said

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@Ninevah
Others of the same ilk, of course.
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Posted: Mar 30th 2012 5:58PM Houser206 said

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They should have banned this douche for a year and than had everybody on EVE encourage him to kill himself!

Posted: Mar 30th 2012 10:59PM Deliverator said

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I don't think hurting someone's feelings counts as infringing on their rights. it's a dick move, sure, but not a question of infringement in the least.
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Posted: Mar 31st 2012 3:38AM (Unverified) said

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I'm not an apologist for anyone's anti-social behaviour. But CCP did not do EVE a favour by voiding a popular player representative's position on council. I'd rather see that mind working for for EVE as a whole tempered by the embarrassing error made under the influence rather than a perpetual outsider.

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