| Mail |
You might also like: WoW Insider, Joystiq, and more

Reader Comments (209)

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 9:24PM Yoh said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@real65rcncom
I'm more of the persuasion that gems may fill a role similar to how ecto's did in GW1, as they helped you get what you want from other players, mostly to look badass more then anything else.
Because people are very, very vain with their digital persona.
So if I could spend $5 bucks or a weekend for a cool looking item, I might opt for the cash. It depends on price point, which we know nothing about at this stage.

But until specific details on cash shop items and what they do, everything else is baseless speculation.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 10:15PM (Unverified) said

  • 2.5 hearts
  • Report
@Yoh
Considering all you have done is get into name calling and some foul language I will just leave it with this.

Making an educated guess on what Anet themselves is doing with the DD and CE and them not shouting down partners who speculate as well as the fact that Anet themselves have stated they are selling what you yourself call a currency is not "baseless" speculation. It is making an informed opinion on what may be in the cash shop based on those very things. Baseless means there is no good reason behind a guess.

The fact is is Anet is selling at least one type of in game advanatge, a type of currency called gems. Just because you may not see it as an advantage does not mean others will not. Anet is hoping some see it as an advantage or there would be no point to selling it. As I've said before, no business sells a product they believe people won't see a benefit to buying. This means it is in their financial best interest to make sure this product sells. That CAN affect gameplay.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:19PM eLdritchZ said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
If you think about it, it can't harm or destroy the ecconomy since there is no "new" currency being introduced into the game... you are not buying 5000 gold on the item shop you are selling your gems to another player for 5000 gold, so that gold had to come from somewhere...

sure there will be farmers and gold hoarders but you have those folks in EVERY MMO... even without goldsellers...

I really don't see what the big deal is... I'd rather have some folks buy ingame gold this way instead of nourishing the corrupt account stealing goldsellers...

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:41PM jeremys said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@eLdritchZ One of RoM's problems, when they used this exact system, was they had no cap on gold, or cap on amounts of certain items you could buy.

Players hoarded gold to no end and inflation blew up, seemingly overnight. There weren't enough gold-sinks in the game. Gold kept coming in, but it wasn't leaving: People bought diamonds, while other people gave them gold for those diamonds. GW2 will be interesting to see, in how they have gold-sinks or (maybe?) a totally new system.

People were hoarding gold to buy diamonds, but that money was ultimately changing hands, not leaving the game. People started "gaming the system" to the point they were able to make gold - generated from the game(selling to NPCs, etc...) and then keeping that gold within the player economy between diamonds.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:20PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Here's the issue I have. This is being compared to Runes of Magic, but Runes of Magic is F2P and this Massively article wrongly insinuates GW2 is as well. But GW2 isn't F2P, it's B2P. We are all expected to pay at least $60 just to get the game and enter the game world.

With a F2P game, you expect to be able to buy certain things that will help the advancement of your character. Some people say that pay to win (P2W) is only when your character is competively better but the competition is in the eye of the beholder. Guild Wars Guru had an article late last month talking about some of the things that might (and yes, I do stress might) be on the GW2 cash shop. These items are XP boosts, Damage/Defense modifiers and Karma boosters.

Now some try to say that GW2's cash shop is no different than GW1's. Well, the gem announcement proves otherwise. If these other things Guild Wars Guru talked about is on there as well, then we are talking about items that people can get to improve their character, which is P2W.

If you have two people who try to earn two sets of gear with Karma, one person does it strictly through the game, the other buying Karma boosts that effectively doubles their Karma gain rate, than the person who does it strictly through gameplay will have only one set of armor while the person who bought Karma boosts will have two sets, essentially having bought an entire set of armor with RL money. If the person buying Karma boosts thinks they have gotten an advanatge, and let's be honest, no one buys something unless they see a net benefit in the purchase, than it is indeed P2W.

I will not say this is illegal or immoral or unethical for Anet to do. They are perfectly free to do so and people are perfectly free to buy whatever they want that Anet offers or authorizes others to offer. But I do believe this sends the wrong message and turns of some customers, or potential customers, since this is a B2P game.

The video game industry is down 20% in a year. My personal opinion is people believe they are being seen as money spigots to be turned on whenever game companies feel a desire to. I think it would be to the benefit of Anet to do one of three things...

1)Remain B2P but only sell vanity items, storage upgrade and character slots, things that offer no gameplay advantage.

2)If they want to keep selling these items, then just go F2P. Blurring the lines between the different MMO models just doesn't look good. It's similar to Blizzard's original idea of Real ID grouping that would be available only for a premium fee.

3)If they still need more revenue to develop good content that box sales and vanity items in the cash shop provide, then try something no one else has. Experiment with a smaller subscription rate. I would be willing to pay $3-$5 a month easily to pay GW2 if these items which affect gameplay and indirect gold selling were removed. I believe most others would as well. Or they could offer a mixture of both, F2P and a small sub where items in the cash shop would grant people who use the F2P system to be able to do what comes standard with the sub model.

Maybe none of my suggestions would work. All I know is the news of what would be in GW2's cash shop have left a bad taste in my mouth and I don't see people going "Hey this is great news and it's made me decide to buy the game". I really respected Anet over what they did with GW1's cash shop and was willing to spend the $150 for a CE and buy every vanity item I could out of the cash shop to support them.

Now, I am taking a wait and see approach. I thought last night I would not buy the game, but I am willing to hear what Anet has to say this weekend before making a final decision. But if I do play and these items are in the cash shop, I can say I will be spending the barest minimum possible. And if I feel like when I am playing the game that it's making me grind beyond normal gameplay to do something to avoid the cash shop, I will not use the cash shop to make it feel like a normal game, I will just uninstall.

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:43PM Yoh said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@(Unverified)
I think you worries are fair, but maybe a bit out of proportion.
Yes if there is an item the double's karma gain then it would mean that two people of equal skill spending the same amount of time on the same kind of content, the one with the boost will get twice as much pay off.

But do we actually know that there is an item like this?
No, it's just speculation.
If there is not item like this, then it's not a problem.

In fact beyond transmutation stones and account based services, we know next to nothing about what will actually be on the cash shop.
Until we know about the specifics about what will actually be for sale, were jumping the gun by conjuring these awful scenarios.

It may turn out that's it's almost entirely cosmetic based stuff and some account based things, then wouldn't you feel silly?
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 8:07PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Yoh
I base it off an article on GW Guru. Here is the link...

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/guild-wars-2-news/when-do-things-become-pay-to-win/

Now these items may not be on it, but we know Anet and GW Guru have a close relationship and Anet hasn't said the article is wrong in the month it's been out.

"It may turn out that's it's almost entirely cosmetic based stuff and some account based things, then wouldn't you feel silly?"

Except we know that's not true because of what caused all the controversy yesterday, the gems. I mean there can be no dispute that the gems are an indirect way of Anet selling gold. They sell the gem that the purchaser than can take into game and trade for gold. Yes, the market will decide how much gold it's worth, but the purchaser still can recieve some amount of gold, hence indirect gold selling. and it's not in Anet's interest for these gems to be worthless, so the conflict of interest between balanced gameplay and these gems being worth something is present.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 8:21PM Yoh said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@(Unverified)
Yeah but the gems only punts the issue over to gold, so the question is, is there anything unfair or gamebreaking that you can buy with gold?

I kind of doubt that.

So all we really know is that we have two currencies (well three if you count karma), which doesn't do jack shit of anything at all until we KNOW what items are for sale, not just speculation.


But I'll read the article you linked a see if there is anything valid or get worried about beyond baseless speculation, and I'll get back to you.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 8:27PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Yoh
Well, I can't see a game that uses a currency where that currency can't be used to buy important items.

Who would have thought when Guild Wars came out that ecto would turn into a defacto currency the way it has over the 100 plat limit. People will find a way no matter what. Even if it's just potions or crafting mats, if people can spend RL money on however many gems they need to get the amount of gold they want to get the ingame item they want, then those people believe they have gotten an advantage. No one, not you, not me, can put a definition on the advantage.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 8:49PM Yoh said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@(Unverified)
Ok, read the article, what a load of speculative BS.
First, it's an UNCONFIRMED RUMOR!
And worse still, the items they talk about are sooooo mild, it's hardly worth getting worked up over.
10% karma boost is magnitudes short of 100%.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but GW1 had items just like these, they just weren't being sold on a cash shop.
But even still, under this system if you only use time and don't spend anything additional, you can still buy gems with gold and turn around any buy these boosts if you feel like it.

I don't see how this give anybody any particular advantage.
Even with the damage boost, which in all likely hood just like in GW1, can't be used in competitive PvP. So what's the issue?

This is all just so fantastically blown out of proportion.


Ecto was only used as currency BECAUSE of the plat limit, it was a substitution currency, and I don't remember it causing in particular degree of unbalance.
So my question is, why in the blue crap is this an issue?
How is this any different the from what GW1 did?
(besides that they know have 3 currencies instead of 1)
Reply

Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 12:05AM Bhima said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@(Unverified)

OK, where is your example of them actually unbalancing the game by selling powerful items that are either impossible or very difficult to obtain in their cash shop?

Also, there are non-F2P games that have a cash shop item that can be traded for gold in game (ie: the 800 lb. gorilla WoW) and I would argue that is much worse in WoW since the game has a pretty steep vertical gear progression in it.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:47PM Graill440 said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
The situation can be handled easily,

In keeping with giving no idea away for free, there are soulutions, but then the MMO makers need to grab their collective balls to do it. Over the years devs have trained the mindless to raid, and the mindless do raid, these same devs can also train these masses to play the game in a differing way, over time, it will be painful to only some at first but because people are weakminded and need to play MMO's they would conform.

Lets see, solve the problems now, get rid of gold sellers and exploiters and bots (not get rid of but make useless), or keep things the status quo? Seems a no brainer to me. Devs simply have not got the balls.

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:49PM (Unverified) said

  • 2.5 hearts
  • Report
Thanks for the write-up. It's good to see a middle ground approach to a Guild Wars 2 feature. It gets tiresome to read the extreme opinions of hate and fanboyism in the comments section when it comes to Guild Wars 2.

I like that you brought up concerns about the microtransaction system and explained the situation without yelling doom and gloom. I think it's much too early to be declaring pay to win or that we should blindly trust ArenaNet. Guild Wars 1's microtransactions are reasonable, in my opinion, but we don't know how Guild Wars 2's will play out exactly.

The devil is in the details and while ArenaNet has credence with GW1, who's to say they can't change things for the worse with GW2. Blizzard and Bioware started off as saviors to the gaming world. I'm not wholly confident ArenaNet can retain their integrity, but at the very least they've given no significant reason to doubt them yet.

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 9:05PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
"Ok, read the article, what a load of speculative BS.
First, it's an UNCONFIRMED RUMOR!
And worse still, the items they talk about are sooooo mild, it's hardly worth getting worked up over.
10% karma boost is magnitudes short of 100%."

First off, I have never said anywhere this is Anet's official position. I have even said it's speculative. This is what I said...
"Guild Wars Guru had an article late last month talking about some of the things that might (and yes, I do stress might) be on the GW2 cash shop"

While it is speculation, it is a fact that GW Guru and Anet have a close working relationship. If the speculation is off base, I would think Anet would have addressed it in the past month the article has been out. So it is not unreasonable to believe that these items may (see the word MAY?) be on the cash shop. The fact they are selling what you yourself describe as currency with these gems sort of makes it even more plausible that items such as these will be sold.

"And correct me if I'm wrong, but GW1 had items just like these, they just weren't being sold on a cash shop."

It's the cash shop that makes the difference. It is the introduction of RL money that alters things. If you can't see that, than I don't know what to say to you.

And no, it is not blowing things out of proportion to want clarification. Anet has done themselves some harm with this gem announcement. I would think not even you can disagree with that. People aren't lining up to say "OMG I wasn't going to buy GW2 but now that they are selling currency for real money I'm going to now!", but some people are now reconsidering their previous decision to buy the game. So they need to come out and explain things.

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 9:10PM Primal Zed said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@(Unverified) ArenaNet has already stated what sort of items will be in the cash shop. They won't give more information than that until they're good and ready, regardless of what people on GW2Guru are speculating. If GW2Guru speculation would prompt a concise itemized list of what is and isn't going to be in the cash shop, that would have happened long ago.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 9:29PM real65rcncom said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Primal Zed said: "They won't give more information than that until they're good and ready, regardless of what people on GW2Guru are speculating."


Translation: "Until it's after they've launched and people have bought the boxes in the first month."

For the amount of money this game likely cost to make and the amount of money box sales bring in (no, they don't actually get $50 a box in profit.. more like $20ish), even if they sold 2 million boxes in the first month that still isn't enough to cover it all and pay for ongoing costs after that. This isn't instanced, small and tiny Guild Wars 1.. it's openworld, massive and all inclusive GW2.

A cash shop is the ONLY way Anet can pay to keep this game running as a modern mmo competing with the others. GW1 got a pass because even Anet said it "wasn't a mmo" themselves. GW2 they already said IS a mmo in the traditional sense in every way.. meaning features AND costs.

Fluffies and bunnies only do not keep a game of that magnitude running. They simply need to have things most people will buy buy default and imo, that would mean things like Sprinting (wanna go faster? Pay. its not pay to win. . it's 'convienience'!) and the like.

Anet can label whatever they sell anyway they like right now in a press release. It's only when you get in the game and see how others use them do you realize what's convience and what 99% of people will buy simply because you 'have to'.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 9:46PM Yoh said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@(Unverified)
Well until your 'may' becomes an 'is', it's pretty much a futile conversation.
And if you hadn't caught it already, I don't give a flying fig about speculation, only demonstrable facts.

And yes, I agree that Arenanet need to clarify this issue further, which is why they are said they are bloody testing this in the next round of beta weekends. Did you miss that one?
They also went so far as to say that they will not be adding items that give an unfair advantage, and that it's never ok to do so.

But despite this and instead of waiting for further clarification or more information, people have flown off the handle and worked themselves into a tizzy over this nonsense speculation.

This is why people need to stop jumping at shadows and calm down and wait for more information before jumping to conclusions.
It's not productive.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 10:23PM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Yoh
"They also went so far as to say that they will not be adding items that give an unfair advantage, and that it's never ok to do so."

They are selling what you yourself have referred to as a currency.The point in what you say isn't that they didn't say they wouldn't sell an item that gives an advantage, but an "unfair" advanatge. gee, what a Kotick-ish way of turning a phrase. An unfair advanatge as no rigid definition.

Not to mention back in 2008 Rob Pardo said that they decided early on that WoW would have no microtransactions. Well, we see what happened there. Why should I believe Anet will be true to their word now that they are selling currency?

And honestly, you are the one worked into a tizzy and need to calm down. People have the right to bring up legitimate concerns. We are waiting for answers, but for an answer to be given, questions have to be asked. You seem to have this overwhelming desire to stifle the questions.
Reply

Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 9:10AM real65rcncom said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@(Unverified)
Exactly. Yoh is the one using insults at people like prick and other 'big boy' cursing language and he wonders why he got voted down during a discussion.

He's also not realizing that its the very REASON everyone is bringing up these concerns NOW.. not when the boxes are actually sold which would be too late for most people concerned about gold selling and power items 'hidden' in the cash shop under a 'convienience' tag. By then, Anet or whatever company has gotten your money already.

He says wait and see, yet he's pretty much been foaming at the mouth vs anyone who says this is potentially a very bad game. He's also not taking into account the sheer amount of upfront money to make this game as a AAA mmo.

I know he's been abusive and rude to other posters, but he doesnt strike me as blindly stupid that he could think a game launched with EVERYTHING that GW2 has been touting for years is going to exist solely by selling duckies and bunnies as pets without a subscription.

GW1 didnt need these things because Anet admitted themselves it wasn't a mmo at all. The game was small, and was built at a low overhead at a time when games were cheap. GW2 is built as a major mmo at a time when near 100 million is pretty common. There is no way you sell costumes and make all that up with a convienience shop only.

Power items must be sold or able to be gotten easily and then sold for huge amounts of gold.
Reply

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 9:06PM Utakata said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I wonder if it's ever possible if ArenaNet will allow for a few strictly free of cash shop servers? Say make them the RP servers...but hard cap more rigidly so everyone and their dog doesn't jump into to those causing population issues amoung other things. While making the normal servers are the convenience servers with cash shops and RMT's...for those who to like to spend their way up as well as using skill.

I think this would restore some confidence on both sides of the fence on this, thus making this a reasonable compromise. As well as making GW2 a long term gain as oppose to short term profit. If they are a company in it to make money...they should realize there are may approaches in doing so. Some of which are more progressive than others.

Thoughts?

Breaking News

Breaking News

Massively-that-was


Featured Stories

Engadget

Engadget

Joystiq

Joystiq

WoW Insider

WoW

TUAW

TUAW