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Reader Comments (209)

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 4:21PM Zahgurim said

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In response to this, another post that discusses why their microtransactions will work out: http://www.thetyrianorder.com/home/m/2850070/article/638922

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:15PM Yoh said

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@Zahgurim
Thankyou for that, it was informative.
We need to continue to fight against the tide of knee-jerk reactionary commentary, and get people to calm the heck down.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 4:48PM Esturk said

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I think GEMS in GW2 compare more with PLEX in EvE

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:12PM jeremys said

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@Esturk You may be right. Brendan and I have written articles relating EVE and Runes of Magic's similarities.

Now, I think we will have fuel for writing EVE, Runes of Magic and Guild Wars 2 comparisons. ;P
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 4:49PM Tom in VA said

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I don't really get the "Pay-to-Win" controversy, frankly.

Win what, exactly?

I have yet to read any complaint that would make me care about this alleged "MT problem." The object of any of these games, it seems to me, is not to "win" anything, but to have fun playing the game and leveling up your character.

If I can have "fun" playing the "no-frills, no-MT version" of a given game, then what difference does it make if someone else shells out additional bucks for some epic item or trinket or super-duper triple-XP potion or crazy-fast dragon mount? What is that to me? Nothing, that's what.

I have a few minor issues with GW2 (the loss of heroes for one...), but this MT business model is definitely not among them.

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:00PM TryHardSasquatch said

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I think the cash shops will work out perfectly fine. People with money to spare and want to use it will purchase items in the cash shop. People who don't will just go about their merry ways. Having more gold doesn't give any kind of advantage in the game other then getting something quicker than others without the gold to purchase. I mean there aren't going to be any Krol Blades in the market so whatever.

The problem is people are related this to other games when GW2 is very different from what's already out. So we actually don't know how this will turn out until months after the game has been released.

The more people keep stressing about it the more radical arguments will get and they'll make much less sense. Cash shops are cash shops, what we really only care about is the fact there is no P2W from this cash shop no matter how many ways people on here will try to twist it

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:01PM (Unverified) said

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I am a GW2 fanboy, and I thought this was a well thought out and fair article. Thanks for the good read.

Can you explain the fraud thing some more? I used alts and the neutral AH in WoW to send money cross faction much like the way you mentioned, but I'm just too dense to see how it leads to fraud in this debate.

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:21PM jeremys said

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@(Unverified) As a lot of news of the companies decisions and why they decided to remove the diamonds from the auction house is unknown(they didn't reveal details, only a mention of credit fraud and other real-money fraud).

Just to point it out, RoM still allows the gifting of the items, so the economy is still operating similar to when the diamonds were in the auction house. It makes it harder for the player-base in some ways and restricts a "natural" economy in some ways as well.

Something else I found humorous by a commenter on the original news articles related chat to players sounding like gold-sellers. It's funny, but that's exactly what a lot of chat in RoM is like, all the time. It's not bad, though. it's just something they do, based on the economy.

It's quite common to see world and zone chat sounding like "Selling +ing serve, 15mill" ; "Buying ABL: 4mill OBO" ; and even big all-in-one chats "Selling Yawaka guards 12mill(or 9mill with your bind-lifter); buying +12 +ing service, must be trusted status -- LFG: HoS run: buy stack of dog meat, selling clean puri's: 50mill...." and so on.

I wish I squeezed it into the article, but this is quite common chat that doesn't bother me in the least. We could well start seeing this in GW2.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:15PM Jokkl said

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And whats wrong with all that? You dont pay any sub so why not buy some nice swag? I would buy a monocle for lets say... 90€ without even thinking about it...

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:43PM real65rcncom said

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@Jokkl

So because you can buy a monicle in another game you should be able to buy monicle-type items in all of them?

That's interesting logic. I'm not saying you're defending cash shops but it does seem reading GW2 fan reactions about having an ACTUAL cash shop without disguise makes them have to defend it, after they've bashed plenty of real mmos about having or implementing them like LOTRO, DCUO, EQ2, STO, etc.

Before they were laughed at for having a cash shop, now GW2 is basically being applauded and excused for it by their fans because it's 'their' game.

Ironic.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 6:04PM Primal Zed said

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@real65rcncom Are you referring to anyone in particular that bashed those games for having a cash shop and are now defending GW2's cash shop, or are you just making up a demographic to complain about?

(Also, 'real' MMOs? As opposed to what fake MMOs?)
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 6:30PM real65rcncom said

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@Primal Zed

No, I'm not talking about anyone in 'particular' as others do on this forum. I'm talking 'generally' about those GW2 fans who laughed at others for having cash shops like LOTRO, DCU, EQ2, etc and now the game they've been pushing around the forums is going to have probably the biggest cash shop of all to pay for all the innovation, time, and manpower that it took to actually make GW2 in the first place.

How any of those people thought GW2 was going to exist as a AAA mmo simply on box sales alone is beyond any type of rational logic. There was always going to be a cash shop in there the only question being.. what was being sold and how important would it be? Logic dictates it has to be PRETTY important otherwise people will just skip it.. if Anet sold horses and bunnies only, why would most of the base by them for $20/month when they can play without doing that? They won't.

As far as the real mmo.. GW1 was not a real mmo, at least to hear many people view it. GW2 is setup as a real mmo and that means its going to take real money to compete vs the others with monthly fees.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 6:57PM Primal Zed said

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@real65rcncom So what you're saying is you've seen people promote GW2, you've seen people bash other MMORPGs with cash shops, and you've seen people defend the GW2 cash shop, but you couldn't be bothered to see if there are actually people that have done all three before choosing to complain about people doing so?

Tons of money has been made from completely pointless items in online games. Until you stop pretending otherwise, what you say is simply not in touch with reality.

GW1 is not a real MMORPG, but why bring that up when we're talking about GW2? What makes you think the cost of upkeep for an MMORPG is so much higher than it is for a game like GW1, or any other given game with online multiplayer?
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:18PM Etomyutikos said

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In regards to buying meta-currency with game-currency, I would point out that Iron Realms (produce and run a few successful MuDs) have, almost since their inception, been driven by this kind of market.

They offer Credits for real currency, which players can then trade in-game for gold. The market is healthy, and players willingly and eagerly engage in the system. It's a self-correcting system, in that players won't willingly pay absurd amounts of gold for Credits; at the same time, Credits sellers wouldn't want to push the price of Credits down too far.

Granted, MuDs have incredibly low exposure, so I would imagine they escape many of the more negative, exploitative factors larger games attract.

Also, as an example of good "product" in cash shops, I would point to League of Legends. Everything relevant to gameplay is purchasable via game-currency (runes, champions). The only product requiring meta-currency are skins, which are purely cosmetic.

And I, as many are, am more than willing to drop plenty of money to look how I want to look.

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:35PM aurickle said

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There is at least one key difference between RoM and GW2: Box price.

With RoM there was no overhead for the farmers because creating new accounts was free. With GW2 there IS overhead because you have to buy the box.

If it costs $50 for the box and the farmer is shut down before being able to make $51 from illicit activities, the venture is not profitable and the farmer will go under. So ArenaNet does have the capability to undercut the farmers and drive them out of town -- if they do it right.

Ultimately, the key will lie in exactly what the gold-to-gem-to-dollar ratio boils down to. Until we know that, it's all speculation.

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:54PM Primal Zed said

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@aurickle Botters and gold sellers in GW2 will just do the same thing that's done in WoW: use stolen accounts.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:22PM Yoh said

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@Primal Zed
Perhaps, it's possible.
But the question is, how do they get these accounts?

And the answer usually is gold farmers will steal the information from people who buy gold from them, use that information to hack their account, and clean them out.

But if people don't need to go to gold sellers anymore, then their shit out of luck. And under this system, I don't know why you would even need to go to a gold seller, when there are legitimate ways instead.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:36PM Primal Zed said

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@Yoh What makes you think people won't buy from gold farmers? Like Jeremy said in the above article, the gold farmers will simply undercut the going rate of the 'legitimate ways.'
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 7:54PM aurickle said

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@Primal Zed
But that just turns it into a causality loop. The reason why the article stated that farmers can undercut is because they don't have overhead. But while that's true in RoM it's not true in GW2. You say that they'll use hacked accounts. But as Yoh said, they get those accounts from gold farming activities and the GW2 model should make gold farming activities unnecessary. You then counter that farmers will undercut ArenaNet and we're right back at the beginning of the loop again.

It's a chicken-and-egg question. But in this case it's answered by my previous statement: "Ultimately, the key will lie in exactly what the gold-to-gem-to-dollar ratio boils down to. Until we know that, it's all speculation."

You contend that ArenaNet will choose to be greedy and make a lot of money from gems, keeping their cost in gold quite high. That is possible and in that case there would be room for undercutting. However, ArenaNet's own history -- including the fact that they're making GW2 into a full MMO yet staying with the Buy Once, Play Forever model -- leads myself and others to believe that they're not going to suddenly get greedy and gem costs will stay low enough to keep thing from being profitable for the farmers.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 8:01PM Yoh said

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@Primal Zed
Like I give two shits what Jeremy said.

aurickle had it right, it's an issue of overhead.
In GW2 it will cost every gold farmer money to set up shop, where in ROM there were no such costs.

So then it really depends on Arenanets gem price point, which is just speculation at this point.
It may turn out that it's not enough and gold farmers may still run rampant, but under this system Arenanet at least have a reasonable position to fight back against it.

It's still a factor that has to be taken into account.
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