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Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 1:21PM Jetflame3 said

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Thanks for this insight Jeremy, I don't think I want to play GW2 anymore. This style of cash shops is not what I like to see in a a game. Sure, it's fine now, but what about later? Will they make it even more pay-to-win? Because being able to buy in game gold with RL money already bothers me.

Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 1:39PM JadoCast said

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@Jetflame3
Really? You are gong to "not play" because of this article? Did you read the blog on GuildWars2 by the Founder of ArenaNet before coming to that conclusion? Are you sure you hadn't already made up your mind on this before you read the article? You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but I think that's a rash decision, based on this article alone. If you read the blog, and then see how it works after the next beta and you are still not interested, then good for you, but I wouldn't let one article sway your decision. Even the author says he's going to try the game out and see what he finds.
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Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 9:25PM (Unverified) said

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@JadoCast
The problem is, to try the game means having to buy it BEFORE we can try it.

Thanks to the NDA leak earlier today, we now know that, at least for the beta's cash shop, these karma boosts and other things are being sold. Hard to believe they won't be there when the game goes live.

And if you read what he said, he said they won't sell "unfair" advantages, he never said they wouldn't sell advantages. The question is, what advantage is unfair? That leaves a wide open door to go through to justify just about anything.
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2012 11:49AM Jetflame3 said

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Hey man I respect your opinion, as long as you respect mine. Yes, I have done a lot of research on GW2 I've read nearly every Dev Blog, and article that has arisen.

You have to understand however, that in my personal opinion, a cash shop should only be used for cosmetic items. Once a company has added items to the shop that might give a paying customer over one who doesn't, I'm out. It's one of the few things that absolutely kills a game for me.

I was really excited for GW2 as well.
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Posted: Mar 26th 2012 3:27PM alycat said

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@Jetflame3 You do realize that in order to get in game gold, a person has to trade a gem to the person giving them the gold? The gems are used in the shop, which means the other player can now buy things out of the shop without using real money, which is a vast improvement over GW1, which still didn't have a P2W shop. No new gold is entering the game. It's merely moving from one player to another..

Also, there's nothing that can be bought in the store that can't be easily obtained in game. The only difference is currency. Some people are choosing to pay in time, others are choosing to pay in cash.
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Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 4:18PM Ocho said

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Guild Wars 2, just like GW1, will have a huge focus on PvP. This, more than anything else, will prevent them from selling a true advantage in the cash shop. I know we've seen it plenty of times... selling of armor, weapons, buffs, etc. These are all well and good for PvE (because really, who cares if the guy next to you can kill a mob faster than you can, the competition is all in your head), but when it comes down to PvP, there better not be an advantage.

ANet knows this, though, and it KNOWS that to start selling power in PvP would mean killing off a big part of the draw of the game. I don't think they are going to make that choice.

However, a little power for PvE only parts of the game... as I said, nobody is really "losing" when this happens. Paying to Win against another player is one thing, Paying to Win against the computer... thats between a person and their wallet whether to make that choice.

Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 4:47PM (Unverified) said

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GW2 WIll be pay to win because you can trade diamonds for ingame gold, and vice versa. Thereby you will be able to spend real money to buy diamonds, trade the diamonds for gold, and use gold to buy items from the auction house that make your character better than other characters. If they real money bought diamonds that COULDN'T legally be traded for gold then it would not be a pay to win system.

HOWEVER, this is not necessarily a bad system, a number of games that have the economic firepower to back up the model have pulled versions of it off. This is why the devs mentioned eve online.

The economics of this are somewhat malleable because (like eve and ftp titles) there's an intermediate form of currency separating the ingame gold from real money, in this case, diamonds. That's the key to the whole idea. By tweaking the value of things you can buy directly with diamonds you can have some control over the real money value of diamonds and therefore gold. There are some important points to consider though. Diamonds must buy things that people find desirable. If you put a bunch of junk in the cash shop no one really wants you won't be able to anchor the price. Instead diamonds will just be treated as an intermediate step to gold and fluctuate wildly with fickleness in respect to the real money value of gold. So, diamonds must buy things for a variety of prices to act as an anchor keeping the translation to real money at a reasonable figure.

This is where the smoke and mirror trick is. You won't pay monthly for GW2, but you will. Most players will pick an amount of money that's reasonable to them to boost the amount of gold they have on hand. So in order to keep up with the status quo you'll spend an bunch of time farming in game or you'll spend real money. This is a re

As a casual gamer with a job I find this acceptable. I did when it was in eve. I don't have time to mine an asteroid field all day. You can complain that guys like me ruin mmos but I play them to play, not to work. I do plenty of work 8-5. And just like a bar, I'm willing to pay a little money to hang out with my buddies.

The whole concept hinges on two variables. Selling cash items people actually want to anchor the real money price, and keeping botting in check. They won't eliminate it or prevent it, in fact in many cases they'll probably let it slide. But remember every time you bot you violate your tos and they'll ban you in a heartbeat if they think you're an economic threat. Otherwise, you're providing a valuable economic service. Botters lower the real money value of gold. By tweaking the amount of botting you tweak the economy without effecting "good" players it's an easy way to control the economy without constantly "balancing" prices in game. You ban a few when needed to keep the many. Ever wonder why devs never do anything about obvious botting in eve? That's why.

Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 6:24PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified)
If any part of a game is "work" to you, why play that game? I don't understand this atttitude some people have about "Well, I don't like parts of the game so the game must change to suit me". That's demanding that the game not suit others who like it the way it is and "time savers" enabling someone to bypass parts of the game is indeed changing the game.
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Posted: Mar 26th 2012 3:55PM alycat said

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@(Unverified) Wrong. GW 2 is skill based, not gear based. You can't buy skill. Gear stats improve during the game but those improvements are easily attainable through game play. There's no quota, no RNG, no endless raiding and relying outside systems like DKP to get gear, etc. Also, everybody gets max gear and stats for PvP. It's a level playing field. In order to win, you have to play better. There's nothing to give a lesser skilled or experienced player an advantage over someone with more skill or experience.

Also, in order to get gold you have to trade a gem to someone who earned the gold. Basically the cash shop is all about people trading time for money or money for time. And there's nothing you can buy that someone else can't earn. Sure, you may get to a certain level faster, but you won't be better geared than people of the same level as you and you'll also have less experience playing. Basically you can catch up easier but you will not be able to move ahead of your peers in terms of lethality.

Don't get me wrong. The system is still good for casual players with more money than time. It's just not bad for people who prefer spending time rather than money. It's pretty much a win/win for everyone except people with neither time nor money who likely wouldn't be playing anyway.

There may be *some* advantage on an individual basis in WvW but the worlds with players who spend more won't have an advantage over those that don't because new gold isn't being created, it's simply changing hands within the world. That, and they have a system in place to match worlds up so the same winning worlds aren't just steamrolling the same losing worlds (as an added check/balance.)
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Posted: Mar 26th 2012 8:00PM (Unverified) said

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@alycat
So if you don't have enough time to play a game, why force the game to suit you? I mean what's the fun in paying money for shortcuts? Never understood that. As you said, there is no raiding in this game. So why does someone need a shorcut? They can experience everything regardless of how much time they have free to play the game.

Not to mention, you, like everyone else defending this system, fail to take into account that Anet wants things on the shop to be used as a revenue stream. If players don't see them getting value for buying something, then how are we to know if the game won't be tweaked to make these items attractive options?
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Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 7:52PM jeremys said

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Some people were asking about the source of the fraud and why it would be worse with this system.

Those are some excellent questions and while no one ever knows business news, until its made public to everyone, I'd like to mention how this system can increase the desire for people to break the law.

You know have a system that allows you to buy gems, go into the game and post those gems on the auction house for a set amount of gold.

Could gold-sellers do that before? Before, they hacked others accounts, relied on people caving and buying from them, first and I'm sure there's a percentage of sellers that use a mixture of hacking, stolen programs/accounts, legit programs and any which way they can.

But now. They have a way to make a lot of money, quickly. All they have to do is get a hold of gems to sell for vast amounts of gold, or vice-versa. The easiest way to do that is conduct credit card fraud.

Now there's a new goal, and you can be other players will do this as well. All you need to do is credit card fraud to generate the funds to buy the diamonds and BAM.

Anyone that took Business 101 or has worked in places knows that it, yes, can be made hard, but for those that are already breaking the law can also find easy ways to do this.

It's an increase in security threats.

Frogster reported this happened in Runes of Magic and that's why they removed the ability to buy/sell diamonds in its auction house.

Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 11:20PM (Unverified) said

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@jeremys
How does today's NDA leak about the cash shop on the beta, and Rubi's apparent meltdown over that, all factor in, if at all, with what you wrote in this article?
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Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 11:27PM jeremys said

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@(Unverified) I have no idea(?) I don't know anything about the leak or what Rubi did. I don't know anymore today than I did when I wrote this.
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2012 12:37AM (Unverified) said

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@jeremys
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/cash-shop-items-leak-t32319.html

Apparently Anet accidentally had the GW2 cash shop open for people to log on to for a short time and someone took these screenshots.

Now, while there is no damage/defense boost shown (but who knows if they got a picture of everything), you can see Karma and XP boosts as well as crafting boosts. Now to me, if you use enough of these boosts, you will essentially "lap" someone doing it strictly in game which will essentially mean you have "earned" some things with RL money.

To me, this is radically different from GW1's shop with Karma, XP, Crafting and Magic Item boosts.
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2012 1:02AM jeremys said

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@(Unverified) Players will still argue the pay-to-win debate. If a player wants something and places any value on that, and the cash-shop can circumvent or speed that up for others with money, they'll see it as unfair. It doesn't matter if it's fashion or combat.

Convenience is a tricky term as well. In RoM, Purified Fusion Stones allow a person to more quickly put stats on armor with no "dirty" stats. These "puri's" are available through the game, as well as dirty stats which can still get you through content, and with the ability to trade gold for diamonds, in-game, the item it technically a convenience that just speeds the process.

You can actually botch a piece of armor if you don't use the puri correctly, free players can save up gold to buy them from paying players and it technically just speeds up the process of gearing, like a craft booster, but RoM is touted as being "The most expensive and cashy cash-shop game on the market". Go figure.
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2012 1:22AM (Unverified) said

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@jeremys
What gets me is Mike O'Briens comment on his blog. He says they won't sell something that gives an "unfair" advantage. Notice he doesn't say they won't sell things that give an advantage, and since "unfair" can never truly be defined and is subjective to each person, that is sort of a telling statement, at least to me that leaves almost anything to be put up for sale.

I guess if GW2 was going to do this I personally wish they would just go F2P instead of making someone pay at least $60 to get into the game and then have advantage items on the cash shop.

To me, and this is just my personal way of looking at things, I don't understand the desire to get into a game and then "speed" my way through it buying game bypass devices with real money. Ok, so maybe I can only spend 10 hours a week on the game and someone can spend 40, but it will still take us the same amount of gametime played to accomplish things, skill being equal (and you can't sell skill in a cash shop). Not to mention Anet (or NCSoft, depending on who really wanted these items in the store) obviously wants to sell these items. I can't help but wonder how gameplay will be affected by them to make these an attractive option to buy. I like how Irem put it on page 5 of these comments, "...the developer treating it as though it's a chore that people should reasonably want to skip. Charging money to skip it is "fix is in the cash shop!" design...".
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2012 9:50AM (Unverified) said

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@jeremys
What you seem to be talking about is called money laundering. And it's an interesting thought. In respect to those wanting to launder money or commit fraud, yes, I suppose they could use stolen credit cards to buy gems and sell stuff in game for real money. The whole concept though makes it harder to do that by it's nature. Well meaning players would know that it's a violation of tos to buy gems/gold any other way than through the built in system. Therefore, the thought is it would make this kind of fraud less attractive inherently because it's easier, legal, and safer just to buy though the ingame system. When there is no built in real money trading system it's well known that laundering is done by setting up a site where players sell gold and other players buy gold at an exchange rate. Because there is no easy legal way to do it all of the illegal and dangerous places become the status quo.
Aside from that if you're talking in respect to player accounts getting hacked and money stolen that way, there are a number of ways that this can be effectively combated. Battle.net's id system is one, Guild wars' name a player on your account system is another. Additionally, they could just make it so that your credit card information isn't saved though just preventing the hack in the first place would be the easiest place to start. There are banks easier to hack into than some mmo game systems.
The bottom line is, that although it will certainly happen to some extent, I doubt it will be as rampant as times in the past because of the real money trading options.
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2012 10:34AM (Unverified) said

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By offering gems/gold for real money you take a HUGE bite out of the illicit market.

If anything, GW2 will host less criminal activity (like money laundering or credit card fraud) because the market for the illicit goods would be so poor.

If you want to launder money or steal a reasonable amount by using stolen credit cards you have to move a whole lot of cards/money very quickly. Because there would be significantly fewer players willing to buy gold any other way than the legitimate system this would be a very unattractive place to commit that type of fraud. You'd get caught before you made any real money because the gold or diamonds you bought with stolen credit cards simply wouldn't sell very well and I assume NCSoft would put two and two together quickly between the CC company calling them and the gold selling spams and would ban the account before anybody could sell any of it. Also, NCsoft is a big legally operating corporate entity that is likely required to keep good transaction records and if you tried to launder any decent amount of money through them you'd eventually get caught. I have no doubt they'd be happy to cooperate with the FBI when they came to investigate a bunch of stolen money.

On the other hand, using this mentality it would be far easier and safer to steal a bunch of CCs and go to one of the thousands of gold exchange sites that already exist. Buy a bunch of ingame gold then turn around and sell it all back to the same or another exchange site in the same day. GW2 wouldn't even be the best game to do this with as there are other games (WoW) that already have a HUGE gold trading underground. And it's even unlikely to provide good incentive to ever generate that kind of grey market specifically BECAUSE there would be a legal way to trade money for gold so it wouldn't be as attractive to set up a gold selling site. That's completely aside from the fact that you would prefer to do this with a game that is run by a non-us friendly country. Say, china. That way no one would be able to figure out where all of the money you stole actually came from.

So no, this system doesn't create any financial threats that don't already exist in any other game. If anything it makes financial fraud LESS likely.
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2012 11:02AM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified)
I have no idea where this thinking of "Well if the devs would just do the bad thing it will get rid of the bad thing" mentality. Sorry, but the gold sellers aren't going "Aww, Anet's selling gold themselves, so let's stay away from GW2". No, they will merely sell it for less.
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Posted: Mar 23rd 2012 11:53AM jeremys said

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@(Unverified) It makes it more attractive. The security measures that ANet takes will decide how well it gets exploited or not, just like the many different ways hacking gets through. Whether it's called "hacking" or by definition something else, it's an illegal method to circumvent the nature of the game to increase the amount of something from the game.

In this case the attraction goes up, and you also provide an extra avenue. The working example was Runes of Magic's method which did act identical to this method GW2 is supposedly using. Credit card fraud, or laundering, was reported to get bad enough that they removed it while they sought alternate modes of policing it.

It was also very hard to police because the gold-sellers and players were using the auction house and it became hard to tell which players were breaking the rules, which were actually bots or gold-sellers and which were legit players finding alternate ways to utilize the system.

Some players in RoM found that they could store items and use it as extra storage(because RoM sold extra bags and I believe GW2 may do it - many MMOs do). So they'd list there items for ridiculous amounts of gold. Gold-sellers did the same thing for the purpose of shunting money around.

Checking buy/sell records wasn't much help because there are legit players who will spend very large amounts of money on the game.

I'm not saying it's cut and dry, or that ANet won't be able to police it, but it's these are just a few potential problems.

This system will not curtail gold-selling though. It actually throws it in everyone's face, every second, making it more prominent, and it can be more attractive to sellers and buyers and players. And gold-sellers only had to simply undercut in RoM. They were able to easily undercut the in-game, closed-off economic prices that stabilized in the beginning.

I think GW2 is on to something by capping stuff, though. Capping gear and everything is a good start.
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