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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 4:22PM LondonBurning said

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Your ignorance towards EVE is astounding. I can understand that "it's your opinion", but the constant bashing (lol, you said you want people to try "bad games" in this ep-- very subtle) and comments like "It's an old game" (when it's gone through such immense transformations it could easily be considered EVE 3 by other MMO standards) is making this MMO gamer a bit annoyed.

Plus, your comment about EVE players being stuck in their own little bubbles is a bit much. Most EVE vets I know are avid gamers and spend a ton of time in MOBAs, WoT, Tribes, and the typical Steam library games. :P

Just my two cents.

Posted: Mar 20th 2012 5:56PM (Unverified) said

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@LondonBurning

Yeah its clear they don't like EVE. At the same time, as an EVE player, I would say HTFU who cares I still enjoy the game regardless of who likes or doesn't like it.

I agree with your major points though, EVE players do play other MMOs and know exactly what else is out there. I've played every major MMO on the market and dozens of ones they've probably never heard of (though Beau has). In fact, according to one FC I fly with he has gotten quite a few beta invites because the devs of those major titles play EVE.

Bree you are wrong on the 'not interacting with the 2k players' part though. When 2k people are in a battle, maybe not everyone is shooting at each other at once but the entire 2k are in one single battle and thus interacting directly or indirectly with each other. I've played DAoC and Vanilla WoW too, and while things were heated nothing compares to EVE when it comes down to whats at stake. The Tauren Mill shuffle was fun but dying didn't really mean anything, and while relics and castles had more weight its not the same as a techmoon with ingame consequences.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 6:20PM Brianna Royce said

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@LondonBurning But it *IS* an old game. We don't give any other old MMOs a free pass when they undergo massive patches along the way (which includes most of the oldies by now, everything from UO to WoW), so why should EVE be considered so special?

"Bad game" is also opinion (actually, I think it's mostly a non-game, which is more a reflection on poor design). And as I noted, I was talking about the EVE players who post on Massively, and I probably should have been EVEN CLEARER that I was referring specifically to the ones who flood Massively comments with abuse and bullying every time one of Brendan's awesome EVE articles goes viral (and then disappear again to Reddit or wherever they came from in the first place).

We're not going out of our way to bash it, anyway (I'm sick of talking about it too). We were answering reader emails. So write us about other things, darnit. :D
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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 6:31PM Brianna Royce said

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@(Unverified) I totally understand that there are a lot of people in the battle, but that doesn't mean you're interacting with them all or that their presence is fundamentally necessary for the battle to *feel* massive. But let's assume it is! There are MMOs out there that achieve the same thing EVE does numerically, even if you discount a game like DAOC that had hundreds of people at keep battles -- Battleground Europe is one such. I wish I had remembered it during the 'cast!

Historically (as I'm sure you're well aware) most of those EVE battles were pointless lagfests too. Whether the recentish dev-efforts along those lines have been effective (or a wise use of limited resources) is something you can answer better than I.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 7:53PM smartstep said

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@Brianna Royce

yeah an opinion - that's true ,but I frequently get a 'feeling' or non-stop suggestions that EVE is bad game (or not game at all) and that EvE players are somewhat ignorant or something.

It is like many people could not understand that someone might consider EvE a better game that other games or even play other games alongside or between EvE 'sessions' and still come back to it all the time even though it is 'bad game that has bad no-game design - whatever'.

Ehh - it is like trying to push one true and only what game should be.

I personally enjoy twitch fast games AND also slow excel like economy-strategic games and I find kinda old and boring that many people seem to be surprised that I value both of those game styles similarly when one have many small decision making with instant result and second type has long term slowly.

Just some people enjoy chess and some people enjoy playing soccer.

I enjoy both.


I heard many times that more frequent decision making is in game that better game it is. Sorry but that kind of arbitary universalistic "rules" are just simply not true , at least not true to all players.


It might be very beneficial to game but it might not.

*Sigh*

whatever I just don't have strenght anymore
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:40AM Cass Lie said

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@Brianna Royce " I totally understand that there are a lot of people in the battle, but that doesn't mean you're interacting with them all..."
You are. A grunt in an eve fleet could get to fire at hundreds of people in such battles, ie. he "interacts" with many more than any real soldier would do in (historic) battles of such scale. That is a fundamental game mechanic of having to break a tank. In real world, you don't need a hundred guns/swords to kill a single guy.

Also,
"Historically (as I'm sure you're well aware) most of those EVE battles were pointless lagfests too." They probably were lagfests, to an extent, but they were in no way imaginable pointless. You don't get 1500 people into battle over nothing. For the defenders it could mean a fight for their way of playing EVE, a loss could mean they have to completely change their playstyle. The attackers could be fighting for greener pastures. Historically, the outcomes of the biggest battles directly influenced the fates of tens of thousands of characters for months/years to come. That is the point of EVE and why so many people like it, everything has consequences, from the tiny personal choices all the way up to the massive powerblocks.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 5:48AM Cass Lie said

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@Brianna Royce And, one last point, Brendan's articles are indeed awesome :).
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 8:00AM Anicus said

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@Brianna Royce
I think what the real issue is that you haven't spent enough time with Eve to really get it. It is really it's own thing. That's not to say that you personally would enjoy it if you knew it, but I would go so far as to say that you would at least have a healthy respect for it if you did.
There are a lot of aspects of the game that if viewed in isolation seem like bad design, but when put in perspective with everything else it creates a very good system.
You cannot put a standard mmo template on Eve to help you understand it. Eve's notorious learning curve I think is two-fold. One is learning how to play the game (which they do a mediocre job of teaching in game). The other part is learning to play a completely different type ot game, and I think that is the harder of the two for most people.
Saying Eve is not a game is just plain silly. I think an over the top statement like that needs some very strong reasoning accompanying ir or it just reinforces that you don't understand the game. (I don't think being easy to understand qualifies or disqualifies something as being a game, or even a good or bad game.)
Eve is by no means a perfect game, but when people complain about things like travel etc many things like that would fundamentally change what the game is. It wouldn't be a matter of fixing the game or improving it, it would be a matter of changing it, which is also going to change the audience.
There are many ways the game could be improved, but if you took a list of changes from somebody who has only had limited exposure to Eve, and a list from somebody who has played long enough to understand it you would get one list that wanted to change the game, and the other would be to play on it's strengths.
By the way I do like you guys and I do enjoy the show, but as an on and off Eve player I think you are doing it a great disservice.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 8:17AM LondonBurning said

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@Anicus

You nailed it buddy. Eve is wonderful because it has consequence-- actual meaningful gains/loss, a real world economy, deep politics (single shard where rep matters), tactical and strategic combat gameplay. Everything takes time and effort, you don't hit a magic button and get warped into a 'batteground' or 'warzone' where *nothing* matters.

Not to mention the community (which some here would make you think it's nothing but gankers and griefers), and the stunning art design/graphics (some 'old' game when it looks better than anything else out there).

I play all those other games too, but man... there is nothing like EVE.
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 10:33AM Halldorr said

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@LondonBurning

I haven't come up to the podcast yet in my queue but there's another hate on EVE section? I don't play EVE anymore but I found some of the comments in previous podcasts a little odd. I guess it's personal opinion but still...
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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 4:54PM Mikx said

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Celebrity Devs are probably still bigger in Japan, but I guess it depends on what crowds you're running with. Nintendo's Miyamoto is the biggest name out there, the guy that was with Capcom/Metal Gear is a big name, and there are others, and there are stock price rumblings whenever one of them makes a move.

In the west, there aren't that many. The 2 that sincerely deserve their reputations are Will Wright and Sid Meier. They have a long term legacy and name recognition (even if you have to stick your name on the box!) Then you have people who have flamed out like Bill Roper (sorry, I like you! But it was a bad sign when more people talked about you than Hellgate) Molyneux, and Romero, if you want to reach way back there. The guy doing Bioshock has a nice name and pedigree, but he's not exactly huge. And then there is lord british, who should be on celebrity apprentice or some other venue that demeans all involved.

Posted: Mar 20th 2012 4:54PM Lenn said

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@(Unverified) And very rich.

Posted: Mar 20th 2012 4:58PM Mikx said

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@(Unverified) You're ugly on the inside. Guy who wants to make an MMO: 1. Unverified: 0.

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 4:14AM (Unverified) said

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That dude creeps me out

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 6:12AM Space Cobra said

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Wow, lots of different things I want to touch upon, so I'll just break it down into chunks.

1) Social finder in CoH : CoH is one of those... "different" games in that you have an older player base that "likes and remembers things how they were and, gosh darn it, we spammed the chat channels in my day!" I think there is a big enough portion of the playerbase that is just used to "calling out for a group". And really, while I do love the dungeon finders, I will sometimes also additionally spam the channels (to cover both bases) but my spam can be witty half the time (if I feel up for it).

IMO, they are so used to pre-dungeon-finders, many probably do not know or have even forgot such a tool is in CoH since spamming/asking works so well for them.

2) Smuggler story: I don't think Justin should be too put off by the Smuggler in SWToR. Sure, I understand it's the same game mechanic as the Imp Agent, but the story (and humor of some choices) seems just up Justin's alley. If anything, you can either/or hold off on playing a smuggler once you've done your Imp and/or just choose a different role. For example, my Smuggler is a DPS gunslinger so I will probably choose a Close-Combat Stealth healer for my Imp Agent (when I role him/her).

3) Kickstarter funding : I agree, you don't get all your lotto winnings at once, especially if you go by yearly payments for however many years (I think around 20 years). I've asked some people, friends and random folks off the street (okay, we were waiting inline and just chatted) and most like to pick the "lump-sum" payments but if you feel you have 20 or so years, I prefer the annual pay-outs. The biggest thing is the tax burden wherein they'll tax you for the FULL lump-sum and such a tax, especially in such a spike to a new bracket, is about HALF your winnings (maybe a third if you have a sneaky accountant!). If you take the annual payment, your first year tax may be hard, but since you don't "spike" up in earnings, it levels out and the next years it evens out and you keep more of ytour money.

Also, I don't know if this guy is "smart" but using Kickstarter to gauge interest may be a smart thing to do, since if he doesn't meet his interest, he can just decide it isn't worth it for funding and cancel the project and keep his money. Plus there are other factors

4) Celebrity of Industry: Bri mentioned about how only a few people get chosen and others do not and they tend to be all "White Males" and I will say she is sorta right, but she is missing out or forgotten about the Asian component: Lots of men there (Yeah, still "men" and not enough women) that are given celebrity status. And while this goes mostly for the creator of Zelda/Mario or the creator of Metal Gear or other single-player projects, there are notable asians in the MMO market: Jake song being an example.

5) Copernicus coming out?! : Just note this is coming from the mouth of Todd McFarland. He is only the artist there and he may either mean his work is done this year or that he may be parroting sommething he may've misheard or whatever. Also, McFarland tends to be a showman and self promoter, IMHO, based on what I've seen/heard on his other projects and Con appearances. Nothing wrong in that, but he could well be drumming up interest in his own way or perceiving something for his own ends.Maybe the MMO is coming out at the end of the year, but maybe not. We will see,

6) Gakai Cloud Tech is a bit different from Torrents; you could look at it as High Speed servers. It's a bit like a Hard Drive "out there" that you have access to. There are similar services already, but those are actual remote access to online storage. Although I say Cloud Tech is more like "High Speed Servers", it actually isn't. I guess for the "layman" (and I admit I am a layman, too!) it is more like access to a remote Flash Drive.

Actually, for the guy (Perry) to offer various options to companies is pretty smart/savy, IMO. It means he's flexible in his terms. If a company wants all their data and distribution on "their side" under "their control" (and I feel this is the case with many companies he deals with), he can still offer his service in another capacity:Having his bases covered.

7) Eye strain in CoH : Again, for Justin: I know there are some preference commands in-game that reduces bloom effects of player attacks or eliminates them. You have to fiddle around with Video options in game. This was also a pretty big deal when the game initially launched and some "over eager players" tended to launch AoEs into a gathering of players. No harm, except it strained video cards, so that option should still be in the game for reduce/eliminate them.


8) Eve : Massive attacks. I feel it's just all a matter of personal perspective. Being a part of a big army can be heady, but yes, ultimately if you "meta-think it", you are just one unit/soldier among many. Such things tend to be co-ordinated (although thinking about a 2,000 player chaotic battle can be neat in its own way, too!). Really, that can be cool but it can also be a bit "mindless drone", too: I can see both sides. Smaller battles have a better chance for one to affect outcomes. Again, these are just different ways to play a game (any of the RTS crowd should appreciate such differences).

I think like Bri says, it's nothing too new: Other games have done it. It's nice someone brought up chatting about tactics with the opposing side after the battle was over, but that could be done in any game, IMO. Of course, it also depends on the community and *if* it is done. I feel EvE is more "tactical" than personal (although some do play the sandbox elements for personal gratification) and more people into RTS can groove off the battles in that manner than as a "lone man with a sword.

it's just differences in gameplay. EvE is different from WoW and that is different from (insert another example here). It's good to see some commentors liking a variety in their games than "just the one MMO".

Posted: Mar 21st 2012 3:54PM Brianna Royce said

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@Space Cobra Holy crap SC. We should be paying you for these posts. :D

Briefly: I think you might be right about CoH. It's extra weird because when I DO get into a queue group, sometimes the other folks are really confused because they will have entered the queue with 6 or 7 people and suddenly they have 8 with me and another person or two. Basically, they don't understand how to hide their own groups from it, so I get scooped up into their groups, and wow, the cold shoulder I've gotten. You'd think they'd be happy since more people means more exp, but nope. :( Like it's my fault I was in the queue and "invading" their group!

Good call on the South and East Asian game devs. I wonder, though, is it individuals idolized in S Korea, or game companies? Is it just that THEIR individuals are revered here?
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Posted: Mar 22nd 2012 1:59AM Space Cobra said

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@Brianna Royce

"Individuals idolizes in South Korea (and other Asian countries) or game companies or do Westerns revere their individuals? (Paraphrased)"

That is an interesting question: I think in the US/Western Market, there is definitely that component, but only if you "know your games", so to speak. Most "average gamers" just consider the company and it's history. that's true for any industry: "They make good cars!" But a lead designer may have quit.

I think in Asia, such celebrity is definitely hmm...sorta eponymous in nature. While it is always the group's efforts that are recognized (the company), you can have a head or figure head that gets noticed. However, I do think some of the people directly under also get noticed and even those in the trenches who have done work can be greeted with "awe".

Consider, you have a bit of a mentoring/sensei system. Not too far back and even now, you had "apprentices" that would join a studio and "learn from the master". I could bring up comics and examples of the studio head's style influencing their art (of course, "house style" was big in old comics from the US, too). At the moment, you got a number of old manga artists creating/asked to join certain studios and they tend to follow his edicts (Matsumuto, Go Nagai, even Miyazaki's Ghibli studio).

Interestingly, you will get these "rebel artists" that may do their own thing, but whenever they set up a studio and get people under them, things tend to fall into a set order/hierarchy and they become the "old guard teachers".

This is true with other companies, too. Sony's head is recognized, but he and we all know there is a company beneath him. While they are active, it seems like they become the "public image" for a company; a sort of "figure head". He's the one who takes responsibility, good or bad, and faces up to it, even if it was "out of his hands". It's a bit like the "elder system", IMO, but you are giving respect to this head guy, but it's different because, from what I see, Asian fans don't lose sight that there is a company of employees under him. You can almost just use it as a vocal resume and get "points" for it ("I worked under so and so.") people would still be very impressed by that and by you. I would think even lower employees would still get that respect, although ones that move up through the ranks show more "drive" and "due diligence to work" than those that stay in one department all their lives.

So, to summarize, it seems that Asians would prefer the company as a whole, but recognizes the leaders. If the "figurehead" leaves, that doesn't mean they think the company will stop producing quality work (unless it starts to obviously show). They will probably follow the "figurehead" to a new company, but give both companies equal attention. Of course, this is vague generalities and you will always have individuals or particular fans who just stick to one person and are very loyal to them (and possibly defend them). So, while the "figurehead" is looked upon and does have a fan base, I would think the company under them also gets the love and fans study the employee lists and see who does what and I would think, even in publications, such employees are regularly named (as opposed to here where we just "make it simple" and just tie it to one person, even though they may not deserve it).
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Posted: Mar 26th 2012 1:45PM Serrenitei said

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I think this here is total vindication of Bree's stance on Eve -- it's not a bad game by any stretch, but a certain section of the player is ... wow.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/26/ccp-investigates-player-panel-that-encouraged-cyber-bullying/

Posted: Mar 26th 2012 11:41PM ksac42 said

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Hello. I'm the Kevin who sent in the EVE mail and I was thoroughly delighted to have the letter included in the podcast. You made my day.

As for the question as to whether it was a deliberate to use the management style of "complement/critique/comment", the answer is yes. I'm a real-life manager of 50 people so I know my way around. :)

Anyway, with respect to EVE, I *did* feel like I was interacting with hundreds/thousands of people. I personally assisted in 132 kills on my main and was instrumental with bringing in an alt on a super carrier. There were hundreds of targets at a time shooting back and forth and as you know in eve, the death effects are pretty severe. I had over 22 billion isks worth of assets on the field and that's a lot in eve-money.

And this wasn't a simple castle take-over in DAoC. This changed the landscape of the eve map in a major way.

Eve isn't for everyone but it certainly is for me. As you said, we have to agree to disagree. Thanks!

Posted: Mar 26th 2012 11:55PM ksac42 said

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Some additional information about that particular battle:

Here's just one portion of showing the ships, corps, and alliances involved:

https://a-killed.me/?a=kill_related&kll_id=648014

Some words to describe it:

http://www.evenews24.com/2012/03/07/march-6-2012-battle-of-c-j6-the-dangerzone/

http://www.evenews24.com/2012/03/07/easley-thames-c-j6mt-falls-2000-pilots-involved-as-multiple-coalitions-clash/


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