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Reader Comments (117)

Posted: Mar 19th 2012 12:58PM (Unverified) said

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@BaneBergan
Actually after BC the dev team of WoW was moved over to Titan. It actually caused a bit of embarrasment for Zarhym a little over a year ago on the WoW forums.

Back around April or May last year, someone in the WoW forums made a post where they talked about how WoW was no longer being done by the people who created it and Zarhym came out and said that it wasn't true, that no one had been sent to work on Titan from WoW. Someone then linked a Gamasutra interview with Paul Sams, Blizzard's COO where he said that for a couple of years it hasn't been worked on by the people who created it. Was one of the rare times, possibly the only time, I ever saw a blue delete their own post.

So yeah, I do think that's one of the issues Wrath and Cataclysm has. The current devs don't really seem to know where the original ones were going with the game.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 1:03PM BaneBergan said

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@(Unverified)
That's kind of a theme for Blizz, isn't it?
i believe the original Diablo team created Torchlight, IMO the best dungeon crawler I have touched since the original Diablo. Now D3 is coming, and I think it looks weak, too.

A company as large as Blizz should work on employee loyalty. Loyal employees that love their work made games that have loyal followings.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 1:09PM Utakata said

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@(Unverified)

Just a slight point of contention: I believe the original WoW was moved over to Titan during Wrath. Thus they worked on Wrath too - Jef Kaplan was still calling the shots in Wrath beta for example. I suppose one can tell...since Wrath was their last great expansion. Cata was supposed to be great...but it quickly absorbed by the B team it seems.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 1:45PM (Unverified) said

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@Utakata
While Tigole and them may have been part of the beta, I don't think they were on the WoW dev team once it went live. Sams made it clear that the original dev team that created WoW had not been on it for a couple of years, and that interview was early in 2011.

Of course I do have to disagree on Wrath being a great expansion. They had some great plans for Wrath, but then again they had great plans for Cataclysm as well. The problem is they never came to fruition.

In Wrath beta during one of the talks they had, they talked of 7 epic chapters. Well, going by what they said at that time, at least 3, maybe 4, of those chapters they described never happened. There was no Gundrak raid, no Balehiem raid and no Outland raid. Azjul'Nerub was never made into a zone, the tournament was never suppose to have a raid, just a 5 person, and they could never figure out how they wanted to do heroics and normals. Tirion never made any sense to be leading the fight against Arthas, certainly not during the actual fight itself. And the whole being an ice cube while we fight only to have us die and Tirion save the world was a let down.

The problem is Tigole and the original ones may have been the ones to design what was intended for Wrath, but very little showed up and was no wonder Wrath stagnated WoW.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 4:23PM Utakata said

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@(Unverified)

To be clear Tigole (Kaplan) left after Wrath was released. There may have been others left before him...we don't know, other than that letter you have referred in a bygone WoW forum thread years back.

I will agree with you inpart about Wrath...accept to say, Wrath started out really great, offered alternative ways to gaining gear other than raiding, introduced alternative raiding styles, intoduce a cross server LFG mechanic...these where needed and dynamic changes. But half way threw all this....Wrath itself started to fizzle. Then came the great lull between last content patch and Cata, the introduction of the hideous "My Sparkle Pony" cash shop and the infamous Real ID fiasco. It was here in my opinion the Wrath and perhaps WoW had jumped the shark. And you could strongly argue then WoW was under a wholly different development team than the one started out with in Vanilla - one that obviously started pushing quantity over quality and inanity over substance.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 5:50PM (Unverified) said

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@Utakata
All I know is in March of 2011 Paul Sams, Blizzard's COO, said in an interview with Gamasutra that it had been over two years since the dev team that created WoW had any involvment with it. That could mean Tigole was there when Wrath was released, but he certainly had no input on content released after the expansion went live.

I will agree that Wrath had a good start. The problem was they couldn't just stick with the concept of 25 persons is heroic and 10's are normal. They tweaked it in Ulduar letting an in game mechanic make an encounter hard mode, such as clicking the switch on the wall in Mimiron's room, and then made a complete mess of it with ToC in making a normal and HM version for both 10's and 25's. Nothing ever got settled into a pattern and left everything up in the air.

Not to mention a lot of the fights were just so, well, boring and some made no sense. Look at the fight where you fight the Horde/Alliance champions in ToC after defeating Jaraxxus. First of all, Garrosh's outburst is identical whether you are Alliance or Horde, which makes no sense as why is he outraged a gnome warlock summoned Jaraxxus against Alliance. Then when Varian and Garrosh demand their champions fight each other Tirion is lke "Sure, go ahead, I have no problem with that" and then after the fight he's like "OMG what have you done? We're now weaker". Just awful writing of the story.

Then when the first wing of ICC opened we cleared it in 45 minutes, no wipes. No one on vent was excited. Everyone was like "This is it? This is the fight against one of Warcraft's ultimate villians?". after about 3 weeks of fewer and fewer people showing for raids, the guild broke up. When I came back to WoW a few months later and decied to finish the raid just to see it, it was so underwhelming and just made no sense to me story wise.

But yes, Real ID was a complete fiasco. How they announced it at Blizzcon really had so many looking foward to it, and I think this new Battle Tag system rather shows Real ID has been a dud. They never should have teamed with Facebook on it, but I'm sure that was a Kotick decision.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 6:39PM Utakata said

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@(Unverified)

Lol! It's funny how we're both talking about it and this just came up:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/03/19/blizzards-project-titan-still-in-the-works/#commentform

...apparently the bleed from WoW devs over to Titan is going to get worse before it gets better.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 7:52PM (Unverified) said

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@Utakata
Yeah, I found that ironic as well :)

Of course since the devs that made WoW so good have been on Titan for 2 years, it makes me wonder that if the problems with WoW since Wrath has been dev mistakes if it will hurt Titan. Of course I am a pretty outspoken critic of Bobby Kotick and believe it's his decisions that have hurt WoW, but who does like Kotick.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 1:57AM Utakata said

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@(Unverified)

Derek Smart. But you may never hear him admit that. :)
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Posted: Mar 21st 2012 2:35AM motmot84 said

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@Mtor Good thing you're that dense. Stay in WoW please when GW2 releases. We don't want people like you there :)
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 12:20PM (Unverified) said

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@Pasha

o.O I cannot decide whether your comment is more sexist or racist?

Which group did you intend to offend more?

Posted: Mar 19th 2012 12:24PM (Unverified) said

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You know what I might actually go back. For a months or so, see the new sights perhaps do a dungeon or two and leave before the new stuff becomes old and the entire player base goes back to their "look at my big numbers"-thing they love so much.

Posted: Mar 19th 2012 12:30PM CountBrass said

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I re-subbed two months ago, after about eight months out. I've now just canceled my subscription again, and am back to playing single player RPGs like Mass Effect, Vampire Masquerade, and Bioshock. I have no intention of going back when MoP comes out.

While there were game elements that made me decide to quit again, the main problem, as always, has been the toxic community that WoW has engendered. Since the beginning, I have always found this "trilemna": Either you are (1) guildless, and submerged in the simultaneously infantile and vicious general and trade chats, as well as incompetent and abusive random PuGs for dungeons and BG's; (2) in a good guild that is *too* good, in the sense of seriousness about the game--having meetings and hierarchies and calculators, as if you were in a bloody corporation; (3) in a weak guild that is *not good enough*, in which one is essentially in a microcosm of the awful, PuG style game described in (1).

Gameplay is excellent. Classes are well designed. BGs, when groups are good, are really fun and exciting to play. But the terrible community spoils it all, and is what has caused me to quit every single time and return to single player games.

I hold out hope for GW2 and will give it a try. But, I may be nearing the end of my experiments with MMOs.

--Count Brass

Posted: Mar 19th 2012 1:12PM AlienFanatic said

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@CountBrass

Very well said, Count. This is a problem for me as well. Blizzard did so little from the start to keep their community positive that griefing and misbehavior became systemic. It would have been so simple for them to empower players to police themselves, but Blizzard always put profit ahead of community.

Sure, they pay it lip service now and then but the damage was done. I remember that when I played Everquest the community was MILES above WOW's. (Not perfect, not at all, but 100% more mature and courteous.) Their GM's were decisive about bad behavior and most players toed the line.

Sad that the word "community" in an MMO pretty much refers to a collection of walled gardens where we treat the people in our own guild as friends and everyone else as enemies.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 4:55PM NothingShocking said

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@CountBrass I think your criticism is more a problem with the internet in general, but I see what you're saying :)
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 5:51PM (Unverified) said

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FFXI gave me a heightened awareness of social courteousness that may seem superficial but really goes a long way in perception of character and competency. I often feel like it should be a requirement for anyone new to MMO's as you must learn to be humble, efficient, and contribute in positive ways, or your chances of grouping with Japanese players drops quickly.
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 8:16PM blackcat7k said

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@CountBrass

A lot of those gripes you have listed are present in the vast majority of MMOs, because their basic structure comes from WoW and as another poster mentioned that attitude you see is more from "Greater Internet Dickwad Theory" than game mechanics.

However, I do agree that WoW's structure does little to fight against, unless YOU the player refuse to wade to into that pool of ignorance. I doubt any game is going to have a magic community, Guild Wars 2 included, because PLAYERS are who determine the experience, not the company or developers. The developers can put systems to fight it, but it is still up to the player.

Getting into the habit of blaming a game for the decisions of an individual is a bad road to go down. Humans are not AI they can choose not to act like an asshat because someone else was an asshat to them. However, that requires more intestinal fortitude than most people want to muster when playing an MMO.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 12:04AM CountBrass said

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@blackcat7k & @nothingshocking

You are both, of course, absolutely right about some of the problems I've described being as much general characteristics of internet social interaction as they are WoW-specific. It often causes me to leave discussion groups or forums that I otherwise would like to participate in--I had one such episode recently with a progressive rock discussion site that I like very much...still read it, just don't participate in it.

But MMOs are one of the things that I like to do on the Internet, and while you are correct that these problems exist to some degree in every MMO, it is all a matter of degree. I certainly don't expect any sort of magical community, but some games are worse than others, and WoW is one of the worst (partially because it is the largest). I've played GW1, LOTRO, Rift and others and they all had nicer, less abusive communities (GW and LOTRO especially).

You are also right about groups versus individuals, and I did not mean my remarks to be taken that deeply. I was simply explaining why I left WoW and why, given that reason, the new expansion was unlikely to bring me back.

--Count Brass
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Posted: Mar 19th 2012 12:32PM doublerainbow said

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I just don't understand at all. Can someone explain to me why all these changes equals a better game? To me it seems they are killing the depth and trying to instance every darn thing.

It seems that Blizzards desire to control how people play their game is absolutely destroying any appeal it once had to me.

If I were a Dev I would not at all pay attention to what this company is doing, nor try to copy it.

Posted: Mar 19th 2012 12:37PM (Unverified) said

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I wont be going to back to WoW.
I cant take a game seriously that has kung fu pandas. It was hard enough taking this game seriously, but the kung fu pandas are the last straw.
Everytime I see MoP pics, I cant get the "everyones kung fu fighting" song out of my head. And the screenshot for this article doesnt help either!! The panda looks so out of place compared to the other character models.
Everyones kung fu fighting!!! Doo Doo do Doo....

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