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Reader Comments (75)

Posted: Mar 17th 2012 1:28PM Dunraven said

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It just seems to me that their priority is to regain e-cred with the hardcore progression Raidders and PVPers....and that isn't the audience that is making them money currently.

They said that hardly anyone is even bothering with their Operations; so what do they do? Work on Operations more..instead of saying hey maybe this could be successful as a casual MMO.

Posted: Mar 17th 2012 1:46PM Tom in VA said

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@Dunraven

Oh my gosh. You said it so much better than I could. This is an MMO targeted to casual, story-focused players. So, what are they focusing on? Endgame, endgame, ENDGAME. Geeze. :(

Operations and warzones will never -- NEVER -- be my "endgame". Small-group-accessible and solo-accessible content is MY endgame. Once I run out of that, I'm canceling my sub.

Bioware has an MMO here that is (or could be) ideally suited to the non-raider, non-endgame-obsessed MMO player aka "the rest of us", and yet most of what I hear about this patch 1.2 is targeted to keeping players happy who will not be staying in (or returning to) SWTOR for very long anyway. It does not make much sense to me.

Sometimes I think the devs at Bioware are a bit ... clueless ... about what kind of game they are trying to make -- and who their core target customer base really is.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 1:47PM RogueJedi86 said

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@Dunraven

The 1.2 patch notes show something for everyone though, so I'd say they're not catering to raiders-only, not like Blizzard tends to do with every WoW patch.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 2:04PM Tom in VA said

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@RogueJedi86

From what I've seen, I'd characterize patch 1.2 as Big Stuff and Major New Content for endgamers/raiders and small fixes and a few tweaks (some of which -- such as a customizable UI -- probably should have been in the game from the beginning) for .... everyone else.

I'm not complaining. Patch 1.2 is a good thing, and I like this game. I'm just a bit baffled at Bioware's attempts to draw and/or keep a type of player that just isn't, imo, their "bread-an-butter" customer/subscriber base and isn't going to stick around no matter what Bioware does.

I'm hopeful the next patch will be more generally targeted.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 2:08PM MtthwRddl said

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@Dunraven Bioware has added/refined many non-PvP/raid aspects in 1.2.

This update is just 1.2. There will be 1.3, 1.4, etc, etc down the line that will give Bioware plenty of time to add more elements to the game.

Show me any mmo that has had their second big patch (less than 6 months in) bring this many additions to the game.

I don't expect 1.3 to be as big, but I expect continuously big upgrades from bioware as the year goes by.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 2:36PM RogueJedi86 said

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@Tom in VA

Tom, one really big thing you said bugs me. It's the old "X should've been in at launch thing". What does that statement accomplish? TOR adds new stuff and people STILL find a way to insult the game for adding these awesome features. TOR can't win. TOR should've had them in at launch? That's why they're adding them now.

Imagine applying this to other MMOs. GW2 has awesome stuff? Yeah it should've all been in GW1. WoW added transmogrifying last year? Yeah it should've been in at launch. See how annoying that can be? It doesn't actually say anything productive. It reminds me of Captain Hindsight from South Park, telling people what they should've done after the fact and people treating him like a hero for his "insight".

Sorry for the nitpick, I see that in general you are happy about 1.2. It's just that I've seen the "yeah that should've been in at launch" in the comments of EVERY Massively article that mentions 1.2, and it gets old, fast. Like a massive buzzkill on the awesomeness of TOR's "God patch".
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 2:58PM Dunraven said

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@RogueJedi86 Yes but so far we have had The Raider summit; and three videos and two interviews highlighting how important the operations are to SWTOR's future.

One person at the summit asked why couldn't two players with their companions run normal flashpoints and I honestly thought the dev was going to bash him about the head for even suggesting it.

It just seems to me that the devs since the beginning have been trying to force this game to be something it isn't simply because a certain segment was crying that it wasn't a real MMO. I plan to wait patiently to see if BioWare "gets it" but it isn't looking good.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 3:13PM RogueJedi86 said

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@Dunraven

Forcing the game to be something it isn't? Like how WoW did with raids? Remember that WoW launched with no raids, so they literally forced something on that wasn't in the game at launch. I don't raid, but even I recognize that some people like it. 1.2 adds a raid, but it also adds other things that I enjoy so I have no problems with it at all.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 3:28PM (Unverified) said

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@Dunraven Thats because time and time again its been shown that you can NOT make a community off of casuals. Casual's come and go often at the whim of their friends.

Yes the hardcore crowd is hard to please but they make up the backbone of it. They are the ones organizing groups and raids. They are one one's doing the theorycrafting that determines best builds and how coming up with guides.

The problem that no one understands is that hardcore content can be tuned for casuals but not inversely.

Case in point. Being able to run a flashpoint with 2 players and 2 companions means you have to reduce the difficulty of the content. The companions simply do not have the strength of a player character.

However if you do this then you trivialize running it as a full group. Why get 4 people when you can duo it? This instantly turns off the group of gamers who like a challenge in there game and group dynamics.

To accommodate this they would have to add an ADDITIONAL difficulty just for Duo's. That's not something that will happen anytime soon.

Anyway the main point is that the only way anyone gets taken seriously is by being serious. An MMO is a long term project, not a flash in the pain. The hardcore crowd gets more love because they bark the loudest and suscribe the longest. Look at any long lived game and the crowd that stays is the hardcore crowd.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 3:30PM Dunraven said

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@RogueJedi86 Not to split hairs but it adds new modes for the Operations new tools for those operations new quality of life features for the under guilds that run those operations....see where I'm going?

The main draw point to SWTOR is the epic stories....BioWare seems to be running away from that to provide more progression Raiding and it has me wondering if EA has ordered them to change focus. More and more Non Raiders are reaching 50 what does BioWare have planned for them is my question.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 3:37PM Tom in VA said

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@RogueJedi86

I see your point, and I'm OK with Bioware polishing stuff post-launch through patches. As I said -- I really do *like* this game.

But here's the thing. I have played other MMOs, and I was about 15-30 minutes into SWTOR before I started saying to myself, "Geeze, this UI interface is terrible. Did Bioware's devs even play this game long enough to see what a pain working with this UI is? Did they not recognize how tedious it is just to travel from planet A to planet B, how many loading screens this chore entails? What person, actually playing this game, would not see from the get-go how annoying it is to have companions returning from crafting missions shut down your open windows while you're searching the GTN?"

So, I ask you. How do you "miss" things like that?

What Bioware did right I applaud them for, but there's a lot in this game -- a LOT -- that simply should have been fixed/improved prior to release. That's my opinion, yes, but I think a lot of the criticisms leveled at SWTOR not having certain features at release are completely valid. It's like ordering a car and having the seller say, "Wheels, you say? You wanted wheels? Well, we are working on wheels and they are coming in patch 1.3. Thanks for the great idea."
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 4:09PM Dunraven said

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@(Unverified) LOTRO would like to have a word with you as would Guild Wars and CoH.

Casuals will not stay in a MMO that ignores them and caters to Raiders only....that mass exodus you see at WoW and Blizzard scrambling to win back the casuals is proof of that.....LOTRO is all casual and has a big vibrant community and does Guild Wars...as will GW2 will have.

BioWare or who ever is pulling their strings is living in the past and if BioWare pisses off it's core base to try and retain it's e-cred it will be devastating for the IP.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 6:48PM Cromica said

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@Dunraven

If the main draw is epic stories they better get to work on adding some. Everything about swtor is mediocre at best.
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Posted: Mar 17th 2012 7:30PM KorbenDallas said

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@Dunraven
Hardly anyone is even bothering with their Operations because the game is a single-player bore-fest. This 1.2 is just a knee-jerk to the mass exodus of mature mmo enthusiasts that realize how mundane this game is and how reality has set in that this single-player rpg studio actually did deliver a single-player rpg as opposed to something massively-multilayer.

Now their once pvevp audience has bailed and Bioware is trying to get them back, but it aint gonna happen. This is [insert name of mmorpg in last 5-years] all over again. Delivery of a linear and borish single-player inorganic game with a lobby-system and try to bait people into paying $15/month for it for as long as they can.
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Posted: Mar 18th 2012 12:56AM Elikal said

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@Tom in VA I agree. I just do not have the capacity (read: manpower) to do Operations, and I do not care about PVP much. This endgame focus is kinda... misplaced IMO. But what do I know...
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Posted: Mar 18th 2012 1:00PM Allegos said

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@Dunraven This was my gripe with WoW; in a group of five players, you're 20% of the solution to the problem. You're 20% of the reason why you got those rewards you're wearing. In a group of 25, you're 4%. SWTOR's flashpoints and hroic quests cap at 4 to a group, which I like even better.

When the content is designed for such large groups that additional third party software (VOIP), additional third party hardware (microphones), and additional subscriptions (for VOIP servers) are necessary simply in order to communicate with the rest of the team, the game has broken down. Cataclysm was my final WoW expansion precisely because it seemed like a social engineering experiment to make a raider out of me with sticks and carrots.
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Posted: Mar 18th 2012 5:42PM Bezza said

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@Tom in VA

I agree with Tom, I love the game and the new things it has brought to the scene. But there are these little things that make you sit up and scratch your head in wonder. How did they ever miss some of these things? They are so obvious.

They are not game breakers for me, I love the SW IP and will play regardless, but if your not a SW nut like I am I can understand some poeples lack of tolerance for the things that simply should have been in game before release or should have been fixed. That said i am glad they are fixing them now.

I gotta laugh nervously when the devs say things like, "oh you want more character slots? Gee we didnt forsee that, we'll make a note of that."

SERIOUSLY? Just how out of touch are developers who dont forsee this -and other- needs? Oh you actually wan't to play races other than neo-humans? Oh after all the fuss about pre-release guild registrations and implamentation, you actually want a guild bank? Really? No Shit Sherlock! Yes a customizable UI is a standard feature we expect at launch.

So I kind of wonder what the devs are thinking, who they are talking too, and how they set thier priorities when they are 'suprised' by what are to the rest of us 'no-brainers'. It is however somwhat of a testiment to Bioware though that despite these annoying little things, the game is still holding it's own and doing well. I am not alarmed by the addition of endgame content, 1.2 is adding a lot of varied content for everyone. I just hope they re-evaluate thier priorities after 1.2 and start focusing on expanding non-raid content.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 10:54AM (Unverified) said

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@MtthwRddl

Probably RIFT. They added another raid and lots of other thing as well as the world events less than 6 months in.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 10:56AM (Unverified) said

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@RogueJedi86

WoW launched with two raids. Onyxia and Molten Bore, I mean Core. Molten Core was so badly itemized that no one went there till it was fixed in a later patch.
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Posted: Mar 20th 2012 10:59AM (Unverified) said

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@Dunraven

What do you want to do at 50? More stories? Raiding and dailies is what all games have you do when you finish your story. In this case, if they add more story, that is more story mode and voice acting they would need from the original people and that takes lots of time to make it right.
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