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Reader Comments (64)

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 3:49PM Delillo said

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@greywolf Actually I think this perspective is fine. You know what you want.

Fortunately there are plenty of games that exist for people that only want to PvE and are designed as such.

PvPers on the other hand get bait and switched by one MMO after another where PvP is supposed to be a core element of a game only to find that PvP is really an afterthought or secondary in design.

That was what was great about GW. It knew what it was. It was primarily a PvP game and I could treat the PvE content as mere training for the PvP game I wanted to play. It was designed with a sustainable PvP endgame in mind.

And hopefully this is not lost in GW2.

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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 4:39PM greywolf said

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@Delillo this is exactly it.

i kind of wish that designers would just build the game that makes the most sense for /them/ to build, and not tack other things on.

for example, if you're making a pve game, you should never then think, "well i can draw the pvp crowd, if...."

your design never initially catered for it. shoehorning it in later just messes it up for the core audience that are there for the things you initially designed.

i don't like pvp, but it has a right to exist. i just wish that developers would decide, early on: "is my game pvp or pve? if it's pvp, i shouldn't even /go/ the route of pve at all."
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 5:46PM Delillo said

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@greywolf SEE! PvPers and PvEers can get along!!!


(just not in the same game)

Go with god, my son.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 10:06AM (Unverified) said

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I think the playsystems have to synch, or the game is at risk of feeling utterly disjointed. If spell "X" is absolutely brutal in PvE, it doesn't make coherent sense to nerf it to the point of no utility in PvP.

I don't understand why level-based games persist in maintaining the level-imbalance for PVP. There's absolutely no need, because computers are far more capable of number juggling on the fly than humans.

Sure, in face to face rpg's, if your character (6th level) is fighting my character (3rd level), it's unreasonable to recalculate everything. But in a computer, you can "look like" (and more importantly, PERFORM like) 3rd level to me, while I look/perform like 6th level to you. And there's no limit to the variability - maybe my spell that does 100 damage to another 3rd level, is doubled to 200 when it hits you (because 6th lvl guys have 2x the hp). Your 300 point spell only does 150 to me. When your 12th lvl friend shows up, her 500 point heal on you only lands for 250 from the same mechanism.

There is no reason that PVP content cannot always be scaled. The advantage from leveling is that you gain more abilities, more procs, more alternatives, more cooldowns, more flexibility. But anyone who insists that higher levels should have an otherwise inherent advantage to lower levels is secretly just someone who wants to gank, not someone who wants to measure their ability against another human.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 10:28AM akubura said

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In a perfect world It be nice to have the skills be perfect in both aspects, but as the pve game evolves and you get stronger and stronger mobs. The skills have to follow as well. So some alterations to the skills are necessary to keep things balanced in pvp.

With that being said tho, I come from old school days of DAOC where a single PBAoE could take out a whole group. Not to mention stealthers! Clearly the skills there were way to overpowered but everyone just banded together and dealt with it!

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 10:31AM real65rcncom said

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Look at most of the games that failed and it shows you that this debate is dumb period.

There should be either games with a PvE FOCUS or a PvP FOCUS. Anyone who expects to PvP and have a company balance for that while buying a PvE FOCUSED game should be laughed at. Likewise, anyone complaining about the PvE questing and balancing for raiding in a PvP FOCUSED game is just as dumb.

This is the main reason these games keep failing because people want it all and are unrealistic from the start about what any game with a particular focus can do based on budget and time resources.

Games like Warhammer with a PvP focus tried to please PvE people and the game turned out crappy for both.

As long as those games are professionally coded (unlike FFXIV or Vanguard or Shadowbane) without tons of bugs, there is no reason an all PvE game or all PvP game cannot do well without trying to pander to the lesser crowd of either.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 10:57AM vaajtswv said

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Spells should be balanced depending on the environment. Take Polymorph in WoW. It has a 60 duration pve, but only 12s (I think) in pvp. Having a 60s duration for both is too powerful for pvp. And having a 12s is too weak for pve. There will never be a sweet spot for a spell like that.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 11:14AM Pasha said

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PvE becomes boring after a couple of months - no need to balance it. There shouldn't be skills to allow players to 1-hit-kill everything and there shouldn't be classes which take 1 hour to kill standard mob - and that's it.

Meanwhile PvP can be interesting for much longer than 1-3 months and should be balanced - or at least provide illusion of balance and developers' effort to balance it.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 1:48PM (Unverified) said

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@Pasha
"or at least provide illusion of balance"

At the end of the day this is what really matters. A game can be perfectly balanced but you'll still hear someone complaining about some class or some ability being unbalanced (mostly not in their favour mind you).
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 11:36AM Amlin said

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The first game I played that did skill splitting for pvp and pve was gw. While I don't know if it's the first to do that all I know is that ot works and it works well. Now I'm starting to see other games use this system too.

I played wow since classic and I pvped and raided a lot and over the years I saw many balancing issues in pvp that sadly affected my pve game. This was moreso when bc came out and with it arenas. It only created more frustration and bitterness between pvpers and pvers.

Sadly gw2 doesn't look to have skill splitting but I'm betting it will sometime after launch. Anet is being far too optimistic about balance and the reality will be some op build in pvp creeps up but works fine in hardmode dungeons gets nerfed to the ground and people will get angry as usual. Happens enough times over the course of the first year eventually they'll have to go back to the gw1 system.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 12:01PM dudemanjac said

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Am I crazy to think that there should not be pvp/pve stats on gear? It bugged me to no end that I was somehow expected to have gear that had an anti-npc stat that was damn near useless against a player character because they were suited up in gear with an anti-pc stat.

Especially in a game where you are in danger at any moment from open pvp, I'd like to know that I can be ready if I should get jumped by someone.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 12:18PM Addfwyn said

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Basically, always balance for PvE. I don't think MMOs are ever viable as dedicated PvP games. Sure, it can be an aspect of the game, and it can be fun...but it's a genre that can never provide one of the most key elements of a pvp experience: a level playing field.

Unless it's something where you enter an arena and suddenly everyone is issued the same set of gear and is exactly the same, there will always be biases in the basic starting field of pvp in mmos. Games that succeed as pvp focused games (RTS games, moba type games, FPS) all offer a relatively standard starting point. MMOs are too based on differing forms of progression (gear, ship parts, whatever) that the playing field can never be truly balanced.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 12:51PM alycat said

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@Addfwyn That's actually exactly what they are going with GW2. You don't need a separate character for PvP matches, but when you take your character there, they are granted max level, and access to max level armor and gear. In fact, GW1 was pretty much like that as well, only you had to unlock it.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 12:34PM edgecrusherO0 said

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If they're going to have both, they NEED NEED NEED to balance for both.

If they're going to balance for both, they NEED NEED NEED to separate abilities into PvP and PvE functionality (i.e. does X damage to mobs and Y damage to players) so that they have balance each aspect with affecting the other. The fact that WoW STILL doesn't do this is beyond me. The new system they are implementing is FAR more complex and confusing than implementing PvP/PvE functionality to abilities (which abilities like CC already have...)

If abilities aren't balanced that way, I have no hope for effective balance in either area of gameplay for the game.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 1:28PM jadeknight said

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My $0.02:

I think PvE and PvP balancing is where many MMO's get themselves into trouble. Mainly because one breaks the other or vice versa. I believe that the main flaw that trips up most devs is thinking that the same "ability" can be made to work the same in PvE and PvP with the right tuning. While this is true for some abilities, many abilities (especially CC) just plain need to work differently from one activity to the other.

I believe that this difference needs to be embraced by the mmo dev community. Abilities should mutate to fit the current setting. I believe this could be taken even further when abilities mutate not just around PvE or PvP but also around other factors such as role, environment, or opponent creature type. (i.e. firing a tazer at a person has a stun effect but when used in the water has an AOE effect, etc.)

The point is, abilities SHOULD work differently depending on their application. Trying to shoe-horn in the exact same functionality in every situation is a lesson in futility.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 1:54PM Space Cobra said

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I've seen other games do this (noteably CoH) to ill-effect; balance skills and it gets hurt/nerfed for one enviroment or both (PvE/PvP).

I tend not to like it and in some cases, I don't think the nerf was justified, especially if PvE folks have to suffer for something that balances PvP (and presumably, vice-versa). There's a few skills that have been made less fun because of this, like slowing down travel powers in combat. I've had some really great times before, especially against NPCs who were also equipped with Super Speed. Now, they expect me to stand and fire while the NPC zips around and mind you, before that "nerf", there were many of my powers I HAD to stand still to fire off (I couldn't move if I wanted to use them). I was fine with that give-and-take, not so much now.

I also understand they did this in CO, too, but, same company (Cryptic) taking their (wrong) philosophy to their new game.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 2:44PM Azzura said

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I like when the skills change when entering a PVP area. When I am PvEing - I like to have fun ripping thru mobs without a ton of downtime after each pack of 3 mobs (SWTOR!) but in PVP - I don't want to be killed in 2 or 3 hits. I think this system of having PVP skills be the same as PVE is something that WOW did wrong. They were constantly nerfing skills because of PVP and arena... taking away your ability to kill in PVE.

Dragon Nest does this change to skills too. Its not all skills, just things that would make PVP not as fun...such as stun and snare times shortened for PVP. Since I'm not usually a fan of PVP, I don't like my skills changed for something I don't usually participate in.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 3:28PM SkyStreak said

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PvP shouldn't bean entirely different game that just looks like the PvE game.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 6:00PM Skyydragonn said

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I'm still waiting for an MMO to "get it right" where abilities behave differently based on whether the target is a player or NPC/Mob. Just think of how many useless and often hated "balance changes" WoW could ahve avoided had they only altered an ability if it were targetting another player instead of a raid boss. How many specs would have reamined viable for max DPS and effective PvP far longer than they have in the past....Yes it would require some additional coding work and a host of bug testing but the player base would love said developers unconditionally.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 6:11PM henbot said

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UO and shadowbane worked nicely, imbalances were sorted out by the community.

pvp and immersion suck me in every time.


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