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Reader Comments (64)

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:29AM Vegetta said

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I eventually get bored with both but I probably get more bored with PVP.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:31AM avidlurker said

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The games should know what they want to be and concentrate on that imho.

Then a PvP game can balance for that and if there's some PvE in it either people have to work around it (you should want to help your buddy in a desirable class gear up if he's weak for PvE...) or the PvE designers just have to take that into consideration.

Or a PvE centric game will have to do without PvP or keep it to the sidelines and people will have to make do with what's possible in their PvE balanced game.

What you said about GW1 is interesting.
In the end they seem to basically have created two separate games that just happen to share a lot of assets and present themselves under the umbrella of one name.
If the company has the resources that seems an interesting route to follow too.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 10:11AM Fabius Bile said

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@avidlurker
"The games should know what they want to be and concentrate on that imho."

this x10000000000000000

hit the nail on the head


PvP games should focus on balanced PvP skillsets, PvE games likewise for PvE skillsets.
then, try to keep the other portion of the game between acceptable boundaries of imbalance, but always admitting it will never be balanced.

trying to achieve balance in both has proved to be impossible and whats even more important, counterproductive in the long run in BOTH aspects, which is unacceptable.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 1:30PM FrostPaw said

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@avidlurker

"The games should know what they want to be and concentrate on that imho."

It's not just the games though is it? Players will often decide to play a game that has never been designed with their main focus as the games focus. Unyet they still make plenty of noise about it.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:34AM ZenD said

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Yes.

I'd personally prefer to see a unified system - one that doesn't require seperate skills or rules sets or mechanics. It'd require fundamentally changing how MMOs do PvE though: fewer more complex NPCs that are more like other player characters stat-wise, instead of thousands of crappy trash mobs or bosses with instakills and vast HP bars. Mob AI would need some serious work to do more than stand there and follow a set behaviour pattern 'til it pops, of course.

I'm mostly a PvE player and a large part of my reasons for that is having to make completely different setups for PvP versus PvE in tearms of equipment, abilities layouts in the UI and so on. A more integrated experience would be far more appealing than having to grind out two different sets of stats (in whatever form it takes within a given game).

In games that claim to be built for PvP as well as PvE from the start, I have to call BS as soon as they start to split out the powers and gear.
If a particular skill is overpowered in PvE and has to be toned down for PvP, then why was it needed in that overpowered state for PvE in the first place? In other words, in a game supposedly built with PvP in mind as well as PvE, why have the PvE encounters been designed to require that sort of effect?

In games with PvP tacked on as an afterthought (i.e. most of them), frankly it's a losing battle from the get go.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:39AM Ceridith said

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No.

An MMO should be either PvP or PvE. Trying to balance both means that they both end up mediocre and unbalanced to a degree. It also means a blander game in general as it requires watering down class specific mechanics that would be fine in one aspect of the game, but it overpowered or underpowered in the other.

I play MMOs for the social and PvE aspects. If I want to PvP, I play a game specifically designed for it.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:40AM smartstep said

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Game should define itself what kind of game it is in FIRST place clearly and then 'balance'.

If game is focused on competetive e-sport isntanced PvP then focus should be on 1v1.

If game is focused on group vs group PvP , large scale PvP and / or guild vs guild pvp. Then focus should be on group vs. group , and 1v1 is not important.

If game is primarly PvE game like Lotro / WoW /Rift ,etc then focus should be on PvE balance.


Anyway - balance should NOT be made at ALL costs. Too often balance is foricbly made by unification of classes , and changes game in Dps race.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:42AM Snichy said

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The only way to really balance classes and skills is to have them all exactly the same, or virtually the same but under different skins (like Bloodlines Champions).

If a dev wants to have completely separate classes then there will never be balance. The only way to keep the PvE people happy by being different and the PvP people happy by having balance is to have 2 sets of completely different skills per class, one for PvE and one for PvP. All the pvp skills for each class being very similar whereas the pve skills would all the completely different based on what class it is.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:48AM hami83 said

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Make all skills have 2 separate functions. One that's for PvP, one that's for PvE.
When a skill is OP in PvP, you can nerf the PvP function and not the PvE, or vise versa.

I'm sure that would be easier for the developers too.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:53AM (Unverified) said

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@hami83
I like this. It'd be great if the damage/cooldown/cast time/etc could be different going from pve to/from pvp, so that they could adjust it accordingly and not cause massive problems with the other aspect of the game.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:16AM MrsAngelD said

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@hami83 That's what Guild Wars Did, your skills are different for PVP than what they are in PVE, it was nice and it worked. I really hope they continue the trend with GW2.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 11:12AM hami83 said

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@MrsAngelD I didn't know that. I didn't get that far in GW1 to try out PvP.

And GW2 sounds even more promising if they plan to use something like this.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:57AM Malagarr said

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Balance is over rated in general.

Remember 1st Edition AD&D? Magic-Users required 2,500 XP for 2nd level and were as good as dead if anything got close to them (especially at lower levels). They had one or two spells to cast per day and relied on the rest of the group to keep them safe...until higher levels...By 10th level they were able to devastate hordes of minions with their fireballs, create walls of stone, summon elementals, etc... And by level 20 they were easily the most powerful class in game.

I'm not saying we need to go back to the complexity that was Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, but what I am saying is that balance should depend on the game and what the "vision" for that game is.

If the game is meant to be a PvP game, then by all means, balance it on PvP. But just be aware that if that's what you do that's how the game will be labeled. Likewise, if the game is meant to focus on PvE, then PvP balance shouldn't matter. Certain classes will always have the upper hand in PvP and wasting your time trying to balance that is, well, wasting your time. Many of us who PvE'd in WoW hated what Blizzard did when they brought Arenas in in TBC, because we could expect our abilities and stats to be nerfed every patch. When PvP has a negative effect on PvE in a PvE game like WoW, you have a real problem.

Having some degree of balance is fine, but one aspect of game play MUST take precedence over the other. Balance must be based on either PvE OR PvP, not both. And devs must make it clear which will be their focus from the get go, so players will know what they are getting into.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:08AM (Unverified) said

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I would say, balance PVP servers for PVP. Balance PVE servers for PVE. Lock out raids and such for PVP servers so carebears can't bring raid gear into PVP then magically that problem is fixed. "But I want to see content!".... well there is a PVE server just a few clicks away. You don't even have to get up.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:13AM The Ogre said

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MMORPGs can NOT be balanced for PvP, no matter how much they want to, unless they go the fixed-bar route like FPSes to reduce the variables. Even then, however, it's a major chore.

Static bars that give you the feeling that you're playing your preferred class' style rather than a generic, and which can stand on their own without requiring specific classes are the way to go.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:18AM Joaquin Crowe said

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Splitting skills between PvE and PvP seems to be the best route companies can take. Otherwise you have the little girls of PvP whining all the time destroying the PvE game.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:28AM Balraw said

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I always preferred a complete separation, trying to balance skills for both PvE & PvP, which have different priorities, only leads to both sides getting disgruntled with one another.

Having said that I do agree with the people who mention that a mmo needs to decide what its wants to be and to stick to that. Taking a pve game and tacking on pvp because every mmo "must have pvp" (why?) tends to lead to a mediocre pvp experience and again disgruntled customers (the reverse is true too pvp game tacking on pve.)

If you must have both then separate skill sets please.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:38AM Graill440 said

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Yes.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:39AM FireWraith said

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Yes, yes, and more yes.

SWTOR is having this problem badly right now. They want DPS-spec tank archetypes to be able to do good enough DPS to be viable DPSers in raid. I have no problem with that in theory.

However, you put these classes in PvP, and they're just entirely too dominant. They're beefy with all their heavy armor and tank cool downs, taunts and guards, but they still do some of the highest sustained and burst DPS in the game. You have these power-bomb Juggernauts hitting crits that my little clothy Sage can only dream about. It's too much.

They're clearly going to get "balanced". But depending on what happens to them, they're at risk of ruining their raid viability as DPS. This screams of "balance me in PvP, leave me alone in PvE" but SWTOR doesn't have the system for it.

The only downside of GW system is you need to learn 2 sets of skills (there are so many skills in GW it can be a bit overwhelming for a new player), on the other hand people generally seem to classify themselves as a PvPer or PvEer so maybe that's only an issue for the people who enjoy both.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:43AM greywolf said

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i know i'm going to get downvoted to the ground for this.

but i dislike pvp with a passion.

balance for pve, please, and don't tack on pvp at all :P

that is all.

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