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Reader Comments (64)

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:07AM Yarg2011 said

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people who pvp seem to shout a lot but I am not sure that they need every game tailored to what they want.
If a game splits the pvp completely from the pve, even using the same basic toons, it would be better.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:35AM Jokkl said

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@Yarg2011 not every game... but games that say that they offer pvp should do this in a balanced way or shouldnt do it atall. whats the point in unbalanced pvp? being steamrolled by some overpowerd class isnt fun. when it doesnt take anys kill but only the class you picked to win a fight than something is realy wrong with your game.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:19AM paraLogiki said

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Guild Wars nailed it. If a particular skill is overpowered in PVP, nerf it for PVP, leave it alone for PVE, or vice versa .. it's simple.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 11:04AM SnarlingWolf said

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@paraLogiki

I disagree. You are doing something wrong in your design process if a skill has to function differently in PvP than PvE. If your design is solid all the way through the skills should be able to have the exact same effect in PvE and PvP while having both modes of play being equally fun and enjoyable.

I think the big problem comes from the PvE mobs design. They end up giving them too much health/protection/armor and then make the skills extremely powerful to get through it all. Rebalance the mobs and you'd likely be close to having skills that worked for both mode of play without issue.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 12:01PM Daeths said

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@SnarlingWolf Not at all. Pvp functions much differently than Pve does and skills should reflect that. Its not broken mechanics, but realistic expectations and good planing. No dev team will ever be able to balance every skill for both Pve and Pvp, but they have a much better chance to do so if they can balance the two separately.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 12:05PM PaterFrog said

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@SnarlingWolf And I don't agree with you. I for one, want my PvP fast paced, matches between players shouldn't last very long. Make a mistake and you get punished for it. If you manage to survive that, you might be able make your enemy pay for that.

In the old standard MMO PvE, I like the fights relaxing. Give the mobs higher HP and some Resistances, so I get to really use all my skills and I'd have the time to actually watch myself fighting, unlike PvP. That requires different mechanics behind the skills, hence the split.
GW2 seems to have the best of both, exciting PvE, where the combat won't get too repetitive, yet allows you to have fun watching the animations etc., and PvP, that's forgiving enough for noobs, but allows veterans to make the fights seriously challenging.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 12:39PM SnarlingWolf said

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@PaterFrog

See I think that is the design problem. Why should PvE fights be boring, slow and relaxing? I want to fight several mobs at once in a fast paced battle where if I'm not paying attention or if I screw up I could easily die.

It is actually very easy to balance a skill so it works in a pleasing and balanced manner in both PvE and PvP. It is just the current design of PvE is awful and has been boring since EQ. UO had decent PvE and I think Asheron's Call is where the PvE peaked. You fought a dozen creatures at once and many creatures could be killed in a vulning spell and 2-3 hits. It made the combat fast paced, fun, exciting, and dangerous. Unfortunately, over the years armor levels and shield levels went up and the creatures weren't balanced up to match so now it is fast paced but no real danger if you have a shield.

But as long as games do the "You have to attack this one single mob for a minute straight to get a kill" snooze fest that is PvE then no you can never have the same skill work equally well in PvE and PvP without there being a whole bunch of special PvP mods.

The games that do the most modifications are also the least interesting as PvP goes. WoW and all of its clones with the battleground PvP are far from exciting.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 12:47PM alycat said

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@SnarlingWolf You're overlooking a HUGE fundamental difference between PvE and PvP. PvE is playing against AI, PvP is playing against actual people. I guess you can say it's a design flaw that AI is not comparable to real people, but it's pretty universal and I dread the day that AI *IS* comparable.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 1:36PM SnarlingWolf said

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@alycat

Real people vs AI has no impact on a skills balance in PvP/PvE. The damage the skill does, the cooldown time to use it again, the range it works at, the effect it has, etc. The opponent matters nothing in that regard.

Typically the differences in a skill between PvP and PvE is the damage/duration of the effect of the skill. That is because PvE and PvP is designed with such a huge difference between the stats/abilities of the creatures vs other players. Part of it is that WoW started the design of "We'll put a lot of mobs in the room, but that is because you are supposed to CC 2/3rds of them at any one time" so they made stuns/polymorph/etc. work way too well and last way too long so then they had to change all of those effects in PvP. I think that shows a huge fundamental design flaw (not to mention how boring it is to keep stunning/etc. mobs every fight to watch them walk around dazed or as a sheep).
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 1:46PM (Unverified) said

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@SnarlingWolf
Go have a gander at WoW if you think it's easy to balance a single set of abilities for both PvE and PvP, they've been trying to do it for years and still come up short since every change to a PvE ability needs to be balanced out in PvP and vice versa. Thus in a game with many classes each with their own sets of abilities the problem becomes extremely difficult to balance all those abilities for both PvP and PvE especially since PvP and PvE don't necessarily utilise the same mechanics.
To use a rather boring example think about it this way, there's a reason why one of the guiding design principles for OO-programming is encapsulation and loose coupling, because if you tie everything together very tightly you tend to get unexpected and unwanted side effects for every modification you make to the code bases.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 2:20PM Vunak said

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@paraLogiki

I think balancing this way is wrong, being a fan/player of guildwars 1 back in the day before all the reworking of skill ect. The game was super fun, builds coming up and going down all the time.

You run into issues of players feeling disconnected with there class in either aspect of the game because it doesn't play the way they feel it should.

What I mean by this is, if I am having a hell of a time in PvP/PvE with my chosen skills and then go run some PvE/PvP only to realize... Double Strike doesn't actually double strike, it gives me some weird buff. And yes guildwars did things like that.

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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 2:50PM PaterFrog said

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@SnarlingWolf It's just all personal preference. Of course I'm not quite happy with the PvE as it is, I quit WoW years ago and I don't play GW PvE for more than an hour or so - because it's too repetitive. But after a few rounds of fast paced PvP, I'm very glad to go and take it a bit slow with PvE. The fights can still be very challenging, that's all up to you. If you don't like the PvE side, stick to the PvP and play another game for the PvE. Or the other way around. If you like both, perfect, the split will enable you to keep having fun in the most sensible way.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 5:33PM (Unverified) said

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@SnarlingWolf LOL at saying it's very easy to balance a skill between PVE and PVP. If that's the case, why does every single MMO that's tried this fail on some level? Perhaps you need to start designing games then, since you're so obviously amazing an individual. You might want to graduate high school before you start though. I hear that helps.
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Posted: Mar 13th 2012 11:29AM erasor123 said

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@(Unverified)

Its sad that people are willing to throw personal disrespect b4 attempting to read what SnarlingWolf is trying to say

I agree totally that its a design flaw

case : If a mob, say mesmer mob, had the same life and resistances as a human played mesmer of the same lvl, then an ability that works on the mob properly wouldnt have to be revamped to work on the human played character. The only difference that would determine outcome is the skills that each has and the competence to counter whatever is being done to them

Currently in mmos especially WOW, the mobs will have 5 - 6 times more life/resistances and the only way to defeat them is to have 'amazing' abilities. Now scale them both down to meet the same criteria of a human controlled character and the same effect would still apply...whats so wrong with that?
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:22AM Tanek said

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I believe ArenaNet is aiming to try balancing both PvP and PvE in GW2 without needing to split the skills like in GW. If that works out, great, but if it starts causing problems, I would rather see them alter skills just for PvP than have both sides of the game affected in a seesaw of good and bad.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:03AM (Unverified) said

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@Tanek
Wait, they're NOT splitting the skills like in GW?
...................
Why?
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 9:14AM Tanek said

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@(Unverified)
I don't think it has been said that they are definitely *not* splitting the skills, just that they will aim to avoid it if possible. I don't know how that will play out, but I do trust ANet enough to hope they will take the steps necessary to make the game work, even if it means PvP and PvE versions of some skills.

If they have specific reasons for trying it the other way first, I'd guess those might include things like: making it simpler to understand how your character plays in PvP/PvE; development hours (although I am not sure which is harder, maintaining two skills, or trying to balance one skill for two gameplay modes); WvW which seems to have some PvE-type elements; they have to see players in action to know where the problems will be (Beta may help with this, but some issues might not show until the chaos of Live)
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 10:20AM Cyclone Jack said

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@Tanek

I recall reading that the tech to do so is in game. If it an ability needs to be tweaked differently for PvE vs PvP then they will do it, but they are trying to avoid having to use it.

If you look at GW1, the vast majority of skills worked the same between the two games, not including the PvE only abilities. Some of the splitting was due to dual profession capability, some was due to overly long CC abilities, and some were to eliminate some of the team buffs that went with certain abilities. GW2 eliminates the dual professions and healers, allowing for the group buffs to work well in PvP.

On top of that, they aren't balancing for 1v1 between the professions. I won't say that the splitting will never be needed, but I don't think it will be as needed in GW2 as it was in GW1. Still, it's good to know that the tech exists.
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Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:25AM StevenTM said

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It would be wonderful if they could balance it perfectly without splitting skills, but I don't really see it as bothersome that they did. It's not like you have to memorize each skill's effects twice, you can hover the mouse over the bloody icon.

In my opinion Guild Wars' solution was, by far, the most elegant to date.

Posted: Mar 12th 2012 8:29AM (Unverified) said

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EQ2 is the first game that I remember that separated the two and I still love the game for that. I never got into GW1, but when I did play it I loved that they had done this as well. GW2 is on my buy list atm and I'm hoping they know better as trying to balance the two never works. Ever.

Just look at Warcraft and it's continued revamp of talent trees and patch note after patch note that nerfs one side for the other. If they had separated the two instead of claiming that players are two dumb to keep up with both sides, balancing wouldn't be nearly the nightmare it is for them.

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