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Reader Comments (79)

Posted: Feb 29th 2012 2:28PM (Unverified) said

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@Utakata
I think you're right.

It's kind of odd. For as much as other developers can look at WoW as a standard of what to do, there is just as much, if not more, that other devs can look at WoW for what not to do as well.

ANet seems to have things well in hand. Not ever level or two has to give more talent points. More is not neccessarily better. So if they can avoid the glut of points, which of course brings a glut of talents to spend points on, which brings a lot of confusion and ridiculousness, I think they will be alright.

I also hope they keep the diversity within the classes GW has. One of the things I love about the limited number of skills you can have in combat is even if you are specced into the same tree as someone else, your choice of skills can make you a totally different player than that other person.

One change I do hope they make is they allow you to use the runes and insignias of the secondary profession you choose. Would also be nice if there was like a insignia table like there was a glyph table, once you apply a rune/insignia, you can then choose that again when you respec thus making things easier and not have to deal with constant salvaging and such.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 6:38PM (Unverified) said

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Dear god, the Guru thread on this is out of control, it's so painful to watch!

Posted: Feb 28th 2012 6:58PM cingeto said

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@(Unverified)

Yup, pretty sad to see. Why can people not wait until they get the hands on the game and see how this system works (together with all other systems) before blowing a fuse?
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 9:09PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified) : after reading a few pages of the thread on GW2Guru, it looks like ANet are running headlong into the fact that they're building an MMORPG for a fanbase that aren't MMORPG players and don't necessarily like some of the aspects of an MMORPG.

There a LOT of people in that thread who clearly hate the idea of any decision you make having any permanence or consequences, they just want to be able to redesign their character freely and instantly at any time with no restrictions. Which kind of flies in the face of any hope of genuinely identifying with a persistent character in a persistent world.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 9:16PM Ehra said

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@cingeto

To be fair, Guru was also up in arms over the whole idea of energy potions which Anet latter agreed was a bad idea.

As long as Anet is smart enough to itemize their gear so that people can't just stock up on all defensive and/or healing stats then I think it'll work out fine. On a basic level, choosing between two pieces of "equal level" gear should be about having, say, one offensive stat vs the other. Or one defensive/healing stat vs the other. Not offensive vs defensive.

Having a choice between improving your passive mitigation vs your active healing is an interesting survivability decision. Just don't let people stock up on all defense/healing stats at the expense of offensive stats and turn themselves into a "tank" or "healer."
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 9:27PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified)

There is another thread on Guru where one of the mods posts a comparison of GW1 to GW2, and it isn't entirely favorable (because, well, they're different animals entirely, which I have learned the hard way, recently, looking into HoM), and then the community, treating it like a harsh review (which, again, a review it was not) divides between the GW fans and the MMO fans. That thread ALSO spun out of control.

Sometimes I think ANet naming GW2 thusly was somewhat like Blizzard calling WoW "Warcraft IV", it's very possible that naming it like a sequel set them up for this gnashing of teeth.

Still excited about GW2 though... because I like MMOs ;)
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 10:49PM silver001 said

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@(Unverified) While your point about it not being a review is true. People wanted to know how guild wars 2 plays NOT how guild wars 2 relative to guild wars 1. Not only that but you can tell the person who made the review was wishing for more of the game. The irony being that if someone had said I wish guild wars 2 was more like guild wars 1 and talk abou guild wars 2 in terms of WoW you would have seen what would have amounted as the biggest flaming ever.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 10:53PM Mikx said

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@(Unverified) This is actually a disaster in the making. They say you can respec for a small fee. Whatever, that's stupid but you can live with it. But why do they have to link the trait points to stat points (and why do the traits have to be tied to points anyway? that's lunacy in and of itself).

Look, now players are crippled in their builds. We already have weapons that change what our characters do, now we have this abomination of a trait system changing what we do-- and changing what the weapons do too.

Say I want a weapon that deals lots of conditions. That's good right? Well, now to maximize my effectiveness I have to choose a trait that improves conditions. But that trait also improves another stat that has nothing to do with my play style. On the thief, if you want heavy hitting conditions, you increase your steal. Rangers increase toughness (why?!) and what if my secondary weapon doesn't inflict conditions at all?

That's idiotic.
Further, let's say you want big crits, That's tied to the burst skill on the warrior, (eh? okay I guess, assuming they auto crit or whatever) toughness on the guardian (why?!) and life force pool (why on earth?!) on the necro.

It is dictating the way you play in really irrational and debilitating ways.

And you can bet that its going to lead to more elitism in the community ("Everyone knows rangers pair a longbow with a greatsword, you clod! Arenanet optimized it that way! Why are you using that lousy war horn?")

It is like Arenanet looked at all the free form, anything goes possibility they built into the game and decided no, we need The Man to come in and keep order. Depressing.

4 Attributes were underwhelming before, but this is just a mess. And the article could really use ALL of the traits in that bullet-point table, not just the new ones. not including them just adds confusion, particularly for new/low information readers.

We knew very little of the old trait system, but there wasn't anything conceptually wrong with earning them with what is now the skill point system, and slotting whatever ones you like. They had 1 fairly elegant system. Now they have two ugly systems (skill points that only exist to serve the traits).

Further, this opens another can of worms regarding balance. If a player wants the big crits but largely ignores the secondary stat bonus, will he be underpowered, or will the player using both be overpowered?

note: If this ends up as a double post, my apologies, this hotel has bizarre internet restrictions.
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Posted: Feb 29th 2012 2:19AM HackJack said

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@Mikx You better read the ArenaNet dev blog again because you didn't understand much of it TBH.
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Posted: Mar 1st 2012 2:56AM OrangeGamer said

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@cingeto I think it's because "THE SKY IS FALLING!" is a more appealing course of action.:P I'm a bit worried, but I'll wait to actually get my hands on it before I whine terribly much. That, and I think it'll be fine overall.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 6:38PM Kyniel said

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Is it just me or does a minor part of this feel like a step backward?

Let me start by saying that generally it sounds awesome.

However, this does feel a bit like re-embracing the trinity... Ok, so any class can be any role, but only one without having to go somewhere and pay for a respec. I think this would sound amazing if it weren't for this aspect. We've been told a lot about how you can change your build at any time, but if you have to go and pay to respec, that loses a lot of its potential. Other MMOs have dealt with this issue with dual-specing (not a bad idea IMO) and it wouldn't surprise me if GW2 decided to implement one, as this seems to be leading us down the same old path. Gratz, people are no longer asking for a Monk, but you've still got to be leveling as a healer... which everyone knows is a blast. (And before everyone jumps on me saying that everyone has self-heals and therefore we won't need a healer, why can you spec to specialise in heals?)

Does anyone else think this might be an issue? If not, perhaps I'm just overreacting... (and to clarify, it doesnt change the fact that I

Posted: Feb 28th 2012 6:53PM cingeto said

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@Kyniel

I think you answered your own question regarding 'healers': Self-heal is much more powerful even if you've traited to have an +% bonus in outgoing heals. Healing becomes a part of the 'support' term together with damage mitigation and damage increase etc. And since support is focused on putting out area-of-effects the gameplay differs significantly compared to the wack-a-mole of healing in other mmo's.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 7:03PM Kyniel said

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@cingeto

Sure, I understand that aspect, but I suppose that I'm pondering whether your solo play will be hampered by specialising in support?

I'd also like to take this opportunity to say that i posted this before looking at guru and therefore I would like to apologise in advance to all the people who clearly are offended by people raising concerns.

Just in case anyone's interested I'd like to share a couple of things from other games which might be of interest here. I think they could make the system a little more flexible without actually changing it fundamentally.

1. Take a little inspiration from the LoL build system - notice how they have the trees which you can respec any time (when not in-game. i see this as equivalent to GW2 out of combat), but rune pages are still flexible but you are limited to how many you have. I see traits working well like this, you can still have the goldsink of the "build slots" and pay to alter them, but still have effectively saved builds

2. The power selection from Champions Online. Give us an area where we can experiment with no fees - let us get the feel of the build, then when we leave the area we've effectively "bought" that spec.

Note that nothing in the blog post precludes these suggestions (so something similar may already be planned) and I think they would put to rest almost any fears held by some of us. What does everyone else think?
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 7:11PM Irem said

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@Kyniel
It doesn't look like traits will influence roles to the point where speccing into them, or into given attributes, will make you only able to function in one and not able to function in any of the others. THAT would be re-embracing the trinity/dedicated roles. For example, if on my necromancer I spec into Blood and Soul Reaping, Compassion increases my viability as a support character...but it also increases my survivability due to the impact on self-heals, and it's coupled with Vitality in the trait line. So what's initially lighting up on people's motherboards as "Hey, that makes me a healer!" isn't only useful for that role.

It also doesn't appear to be the case that the secondary attributes that you can choose to spec into mean more than weapon and skill choice. I don't see any indication that if I switch to staff on my Necro without the opportunity to change my traits that I'll be gimped, just that I won't be as optimized as someone who uses a staff all the time and has a specific build for it.

The main reason I like this is that I think it encourages a sense of identity. It's a fine line to walk between making choices meaningful and making them so restrictive that characters are pigeonholed, but I hope ArenaNet's got it right. I want to be able to switch tactics when I need to, but I don't want to feel like every aspect of my profession is so interchangeable that any random I'm grouping with can decide I need to respec to suit him because he heard minion masters were really good.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 7:33PM Kyniel said

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@Irem

Thanks for your reply :)

I've just been spending some more time looking over the traits (as they appeared in beta anyhow) and it's really made me feel a lot better about this. I think that your point about character identity is incredibly important and I couldn't agree more. Obviously this is all just speculation and while I suspect that there may be calls for something along the lines of dual-specing I very much doubt it will be as necessary as in other games.

With identity in mind, does anyone find that this actually helps you to form your characters? I'm definitely finding the concepts (and in some cases the traits too) really compelling in giving me an idea of exactly how I want my character to be in terms of personality as well as "build". I think that's a pretty major sign of a very good system.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 8:01PM Irem said

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@Kyniel
Absolutely! I admit, I can rarely get into metagame stuff for its own sake and find the prospect of taking a skill or spec just because it's been determined to be "the best" extremely boring. I'll still do it, because that's the way things often are, but I resent it. I have very strong ideas about who my characters are, and the flavor of different playstyles so often reflects a certain personality type that I find it hard to move a character into one that just doesn't suit them. I'm a roleplayer, and I've known from the start what weapons and playstyle suit the character I want to make. As long as it's not necessary to specialize to be borderline effective, I'm perfectly happy with anything that allows me to further define who he is. He may be able to use anything in his field, but hey, at heart he's really a dagger kind of guy.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 8:47PM deluxe2000 said

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@Kyniel
You know it looks like there are 5 branches to every profession, which is not only better then WoW's, but every profession has a 'support' branch featuring the compassion trait which improves self and others healing. So there will be no one that can be IDd as a 'healer' class still, although I can definately see Warriors as the designated tank now.

All the same, that these traits can be increased via gear makes me even more excited for the in-game economy and general loot drops. Think of how hard it will be to get gear with the exact trait line you are focusing on - either pay a crafter or by it on the AH. Very cool!
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 11:06PM Mikx said

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@Kyniel Ha! Good point about being encouraged to level as a healer. And dual spec.... that's just a sign that the talent system failed, these trait points are a really bad talent tree, making a dual spec is just acknowledging and compounding the trait point failure. All the trait points are is numbers. At least in WoW talent points gave you a new skill here and there. which made dual spec sorta okay.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 11:22PM Mikx said

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@Kyniel But the game already had an identity. You were the thief that liked to wear Fezes*. That was your identity. But now you have to put points in skills that indirectly enhance your ability to wear the fez, which means if you want to switch out and wear a stetson you'll be at a disadvantage.

*In this crossover analogy, assume stetsons and fezes are weapons.

If Guild Wars 2 didn't have weapon switching this trait point thing might make sense. Might. But what the trait points do is make weapon switching less fun. And that is shooting themselves in the foot.
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Posted: Feb 28th 2012 11:35PM Mikx said

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@deluxe2000 No, the way they explain it, only the original 4 can be increased with gear. The new ones you only put points into.

And having 5-6 (why not 20?) talent trees per class doesn't make it
"better." More =/= better.
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