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Reader Comments (139)

Posted: Feb 14th 2012 6:05PM kgptzac said

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Very nice writeup. I was going writ e one of the same topic on my personal for thought practices, but I guess I won't be doing that xD.

Ultimately it will boil down to whether the game is actually fun or not when you actually can get your hands on it. Those who hate the style (of both the visual and the gameplay mechanics) will go play something else. From the raving reviews so far on Massively, it seems to be a good sign. As long as this game is not being blocked by NCSoft for release... and the fabled "not enough endgame content" problem is confirmed to be squashed in the "westernized" version.

Anyway, I'm still waiting my turn to participate the beta and maybe some free trial period to assess whether I really want to pay for this game.

Posted: Feb 14th 2012 6:06PM Brockobama321 said

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" and this is another black mark against TERA in terms of mainstream acceptance"

Good, the death of WoW was a direct result of mainstream acceptance. The game went down hill when the soccer moms started outnumber the hardcore players.

The entire Elin debacle is shameful to me. People are pathetic for getting so up in arms about them. But then again, people are pathetic for talking about "Objectifying Women (or men)" in MMO's too.

Posted: Feb 14th 2012 9:35PM Zyrusticae said

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@Brockobama321

While I think the Elin thing is silly and overblown, I MUST disagree on the objectification of women and men.

As repeated time and time again, the issue is that female characters are sexualized while male characters are idealized. Sexual fantasy versus power fantasy. Either both males and females are idealized with power in mind, or with sex in mind, or both at once, but there should not be such a double standard between the two.

Games like Champions Online, Soul Calibur V, Saints Row The Third, Skyrim, and so on all thankfully provide players with enough customization to *choose* how to represent their avatar, whether they are sexualized or idealized or set up as a joke. When there is not enough choice in the matter such that players are *forced* to be one thing, that is a problem.
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Posted: Feb 14th 2012 6:15PM shirtntie said

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I enjoyed the article. I love reading opinions and different poin of views especially about things I like, like Tera.

It boils down to where you draw the line for yourself. I stopped playing WoW after they implemented nazis and when I got fed up of them using subscription money to create and sell in game items like mounts and pets. I put my line there but other people don't and thats them.
For me Elin are a race in a game that look like little girls if you remove the animal ears/tail, lore, anatomy(large hips and thighs) anime faces(ridiculously large eyes and small noses) and their ability to wield magic and large weapons without problem. Get my point?

Posted: Feb 14th 2012 6:56PM (Unverified) said

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I've felt the same about all the points you've brought up, particularly the blocking of select countries to play on the American release. Though I do have to say that while the Elin are off-putting, I'm not too bothered by them. I chock it up to a different culture, and I don't really see any intent by the developers as purposely pushing Elin as pedophile material.

I do find a lot of distaste as to how En Masse has advertised the game. The build up for the game up to the beta has been dreadful marketing. They released ho-hum material about BAMs and focused way too much on the combat. I did not like their smug attitude with those select pieces, such as the videos where En Masse members were trying to hype up the game.

I'm taking my approach to the game cautiously at the moment. I want to try out the game and the guaranteed earliest time for that will be the open beta. I hope that the game makes it to release here in America, I'd hate for it to be denied. That's my biggest concern really. It's a tangible and believable outcome that would take the choice away from all of the consumers for playing the game.

Posted: Feb 14th 2012 6:56PM (Unverified) said

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I love the look of the game, and the armor does not turn me off at all (yes, I am a woman and yes, I love cute armor).

The Elin controversy I can see both sides on. I used to have a friend who was a gymnast and because of her slight build and height she was mistaken for 13 or 14 even when she was 18 and some people treated her like she was a child and tried telling her what clothing she couldn't wear. However, this being a game, perhaps it wasn't in the dev's best interest to make them look like children and are asking for the wrong audience. That is going to be a tough one to think about.

But what might keep me from the game is if they did indeed use stolen assets. If they did that, then I do not want to support a company like that. And as the author said, there's no doubt that's what happened. Looking more into it, it turns out that several got busted with flash drives with the files on them.

Some people want to say "well, it's the artists work" but the artists sign a contract, they know what they can and can not legally do. And if you apply that standard, than any computer programmer can claim their work as their own, game or not. It would lead to mass chaos and even less products coming to market.

I won't close my mind to the game, I do love the look of it and hear the gameplay is very good. If it turns out that no stolen assets were used, I will more than likely pick it up, but I hope the answer comes soon on that.

Posted: Feb 15th 2012 5:24AM kgptzac said

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@Fnights

"Unfortunately this "column" is in the top page not in a corner so your opinion become a review,"

you, sir, fail at logic.

also. the law suit and IP block are factual events, and who the hell are you to say we can't. form an opinion on the game based on that? I'm pretty sure the author didnt make a conclusion of bad gameplay mechanics out of those events, so i don't see a problem.

Posted: Feb 14th 2012 7:29PM (Unverified) said

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@Fnights

Except for the fact of the disclaimer at the start of the article. What, did you consciously block out the italic text? The Soapbox has been out long enough for regular readers to know it's an opinion column, and the disclaimer is there for anyone new enough to ignorantly claim it's not. And really, there's nothing here to even hint that it's a review of the game. It's a discussion on the meta more than anything.

I do not see this so-called "clear" indication that Jef and Brianna hate the game and its art. As for them disliking it enough to include factual information about the game: Uh what? So what you're saying is that those that like the game ignore the cold hard facts. Great logic there. Jef mentions the IP block and lawsuit as reasons for his trepidation about getting the game. I don't see any black and white statement where he knocks the game entirely based on any of the points he brought up. While in your mind you may see this article as an example of hate for the game, a more balanced mind would see it plainly for constructive criticism. It's totally possible to have reservations and criticisms about a game and still like it.

"Is this really an opinion or you get payed to bash this game? Because an opinion is based not only on futile external factors, but gameplay, skills and content too. An opinion can be done only when you have tried the game and test all features, where is this part? Unaccettable and unprofessional."

Really? You're so butthurt that you're pulling that card? You don't take criticism well at all do you? Don't be so juvenile as to paint this opinion piece as some kind of company hate propaganda. And what's this bull about what constitutes an opinion? I think you're confusing that with a review, which I'd have agreed with you if the article was presented as one in the first place.

If anything your comment and mindset is what's unacceptable and frankly, you come off as being paranoid out the wazoo.

Posted: Feb 14th 2012 7:47PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified)
What's horrible about it? The author seems to bring up legitimate points about the game.

Posted: Feb 14th 2012 7:52PM Borick said

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Jef, I'm sorry for your sore wrists, but I'm afraid you're coming off as the old guy bitching about skateboards on the sidewalk.

They took what they loved from 'the man' and have made it into the MMO they envisioned. There wasn't even any Robin Hood violence involved, and those guilty stood up to the charge and paid their debt to society.

The game isn't the end-all, be-all, but I think that the combat system is going to shake up an otherwise stagnant genre.

Posted: Feb 14th 2012 8:03PM (Unverified) said

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@Borick
If you are talking about the theft of IP, why do you like it? Is it ok to walk into Walmart and steal off the shelves?
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Posted: Feb 14th 2012 10:07PM Borick said

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@(Unverified) They aren't even the same thing.
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Posted: Feb 15th 2012 2:54AM Buhallin said

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@Borick Tell you what, Borick - try stealing from your employer some time. Spend 8 hours working, take whatever you make for whoever you work for - I don't care whether it's iPods, software, or burgers - tell your boss you're keeping it, throw it in your pocket and walk out.

See how much they aren't even the same thing then.

I'm not sure if you don't get this case, or just have never actually held a job, but when someone pays you to build something for them, and you take that, it's stealing. It's pretty much the core concept of every employment contract ever - work you develop for an employer while being paid by that employer belongs to that employer.
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Posted: Feb 15th 2012 12:36PM Borick said

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@Buhallin Contract violation is not theft, although it can involve it.

I am not arguing the law here. I'm arguing against the viewpoint that intellectual property is of the same category as physical goods. Yes, I know that the debate has been going on since Sousa, but it isn't a black and white issue.

And yes, if I worked for years on a game, only to have it shitcanned out of hand, I would have no moral qualms about fudging my previous ideas into a new project and paying the legal fees to negotiate a settlement later.

Google started out with server hardware of questionable provenience. The Hollywood studios 'stole' IP from Edison to make their movies. Microsoft vs. Java, Java vs. Sun... if it's theft, it's something that the bigger entities do as a matter of regular business. So far I don't see anyone going Judge Dredd on them.
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Posted: Feb 15th 2012 1:31PM (Unverified) said

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@Borick
As someone who appreciates gaming you should see intellectual property theft as the same physical property theft.

And this is not just a contract violation. This isn't where a homeowner who signs a mortgage contract to pay a certain amount a month or lose the house doesn't pay. This is someone who who gets paid by a company to make a product for the company. Whether physical or digital, the product belongs to the company, not the individual.

If the real world operated according to your moral sense, digital creation would grind to a halt. No company would invest in games, or software or any of the like because it could be freely taken from them. And you certainly wouldn't see private individuals who could go out and fund just the software development side of an MMO much less all the physical servers and infrestructures needed in various locations around the country/world.

Sorry, but these people DID steal. They made a product they were paid by NCSoft to make and then tried to take it.
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Posted: Feb 15th 2012 3:11PM Buhallin said

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@Borick "I would have no moral qualms about fudging my previous ideas into a new project"

You still haven't actually looked at this case, have you?

This is not a vague similarity between concepts, or even close replicas. They didn't steal the idea for an action combat system, or even the exact mechanics.

What they stole was the exact lines of code they had written while working for NCSoft. Copied it onto media, walked out the door with it, and used it as the core of their own game. How can you possibly define that as anything but theft?

I fully appreciate that there is a spectrum of IP control issues, but this one is about as far down the clear-cut path as you can possibly get. They created a product for their employer. When they left, they took that with them. If Chevy decided tomorrow they were going to cancel the Volt, the workers at the plant couldn't just grab the leftovers and wander off with them, and that isn't influenced by whether or not Chevy's going to sell or junk those existent cars.

But maybe I should try a different path - you see no moral qualms with taking work that you were paid to do. Why not? What makes it justifiable to copy lines of code you were paid to develop, but not to walk out with an iPod or a car you were paid to build?
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Posted: Feb 15th 2012 3:51PM Borick said

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@Buhallin I can't take work that I've already given.

As for the iPod thing, that's a physical object, and by taking it I am removing something that will no longer be available to others.

If what I take with me is an idea, then there is no theft. There may be copyright infringement and illegal use, but I haven't taken something that is no longer present and available for use to others, and I don't feel it's healthy to propagandize such things in the same category as criminal theft.

I wouldn't walk into Wal Mart and steal an iPod, but if I had an idea for a personal replicator that let me copy anything I wanted off of their racks, I'd put Wal Mart and Apple both out of business for their own good.

Of course, I'm a citizen. I understand that laws allow for damages to injured parties, but in this case justice seems to have been public and the damages paid. I do understand that this is a crime, but I split hairs between stealing and copying.

Better ideas will free themselves of unjust constraints.
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Posted: Feb 15th 2012 5:08PM Borick said

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@Buhallin Words fail you perhaps because you have no rational argument except to insult your opponents character.
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Posted: Feb 15th 2012 5:21PM Buhallin said

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@Borick No - words fail me because I'm a software engineer, and you're essentially telling me that you feel entitled to anything I create without compensating me for it. You would happily put me out of business for my own good? Pretty sure you have no character to insult.

There are a ton of serious, reasonable questions surrounding IP protections and laws, how corporations have abused them and how idiots like you think they're entitled to everything for free just because they can copy it.

Do us all a favor - head into WalMart, hand them the $4 the phyical materials for a game cost, and try to walk out with it. I'm sure the police will love to hear your explanation of how you paid for the game, and weren't stealing the important parts.
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Posted: Feb 15th 2012 5:33PM (Unverified) said

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@Borick
You are a plain, common theif, nothing more, nothing less.

To justify crime is sad and pathetic, although it seems to be part of the breakdown of today's society.

If your world view of this became the prevailing one, please tell me who exactly would pay someone to creat things if that hired employee was free to take the very product they take? Why would bioware invest the hundreds of millions of dollars into SWTOR they did if their devs were free to walk out the door with the code that Bioware paid them to make as you seem to believe they should be able to do? The answer is, they wouldn't.

You may think things wouldn't grimnd to a halt, but they would. No one would ever hire someone to make something if the person they hired was free to do with the resulting product as they wished.
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