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Reader Comments (84)

Posted: Jan 22nd 2012 10:31AM Budukahn said

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@Brianna Royce

That's the problem though, paying through the nose. I haven't stumbled across a single F2P game that I feel has offered real value for money. For the prices asked for some of these "conveniences" I can buy whole other games or days out.

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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 12:40PM Softserve said

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The fact is that Turbine can and will hold out on this longer than any of us will. I don't think that armor is going away.

But I do think we still, as a community, fix the problem they're claiming exists: not enough low level armor on the AH.

My plan--and I hope others do the same--is to just put as much lower level crafted stuff up on the AH at reasonable prices as I can. If enough people do this, there would be no reason for greedy people to sell Level 8 items for 200 silver (like they do currently). And there may be less reason for people to want to spend actual cash on Turbine's solution.

This is a MMO and I would have liked to see Turbine foster the community in some way. But in the F2P world this is simply an opportunity, for better or worse. I think we still have room, within the expected confines of the game, to offset this.

Posted: Jan 21st 2012 1:52PM (Unverified) said

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@Softserve

"My plan--and I hope others do the same--is to just put as much lower level crafted stuff up on the AH at reasonable prices as I can. If enough people do this, there would be no reason for greedy people to sell Level 8 items for 200 silver (like they do currently). And there may be less reason for people to want to spend actual cash on Turbine's solution."

Good luck, but nobody is going to do this for an extended period of time. The problem is that there is not a demand for low level crafted armor. New players aren't as familiar with the AH, good gear is obtained from questing, leveling goes by so quickly that it's silly to buy armor that will be obsolete in a couple of hours. To this end, using TP for such armor is even more absurd.

This is an indictment of LOTRO's shabby crafting system. And the biggest problem - as Justin observes - is what this portends for future Store advantage items for higher levels. I'd say focus your efforts on getting out armor for above L20 where there is slightly greater profit to encourage the effort. That is where there is a bigger market and the usual inflated prices - and where the Maginot Line is currently drawn.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 3:00PM Softserve said

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@(Unverified) Well, I can't say I don't agree with your points. But I think there are enough people leveling up that this can start at the low levels and continue on to the high ones.

It seems the AH is relatively healthy from 40 on -- I think if it stays that way there isn't much to be concerned with... We can keep putting stuff up there because it regularly sells and it's valuable enough to be worthwhile.

For this lower level stuff I think a conscious effort has to be made because it's not very valuable to crafters and can be easily vendored.

But either way, my concept on this is only really assuming that we can take Turbine at their word and believe that this is TRULY an issue. That's obviously up for debate.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 3:08PM JaySpeed said

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@Softserve That requires grinding out low level mats, unless you have them stored up already. I do not have low level mats so I won't be making low level armor. I really don't even see why armor is needed on the store. Quest rewards are good enough until you're in the 40's anyway. You level so quick that you'll out level the store bought gear in a matter of hours, depending on play time.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 6:32PM h4ngedm4n said

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@Softserve
I'm not sure if this is applicable to LOTRO, but in many mmos your plan would be canceled out by many other players who do the "buy low, sell high" thing. Some people even spend more time playing the market than the game itself.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 12:44PM nathanb said

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I really liked how LOTRO started out by charging for adventure packs and I didn't mind the buffs being sold in the store. Cosmetic Items were a good choice, too. I thought that implementation was a great way of doing the F2P model. I am a lifer with LOTRO, so I never saw the limitations first hand, only what was shared through chat and what I have read here on Massively. There were none of the typical buy bigger bags on the store that so many F2P models implemented. I know LOTRO has the option to buy more vault space and common vault, but it wasn't so restrictive that it would burden game play. And there was no level limit cap, too.
I can see the excuse for adding stat gear to satisfy the need for low level players, but it just doesn't make sense to me. You can grind skirmish marks for "descent" gear and some of the mission rewards are pretty good to get started. I just see it as a bad path to head down and agree that it won't stop here.

I'd rather see skirmish marks being sold in the store than equipment. They sell such barter items already.

Posted: Jan 21st 2012 12:46PM ScottishViking said

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"The Turbine store should not be competing against players."

Agree with this 100%. Crafting is already pretty weak in LOTRO, especially at lower levels. Now there's an even greater lack of incentive to do it.

A real shame.

Posted: Jan 21st 2012 12:49PM alucard3000 said

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Why do people care how others play their game if it has no bearing on how they play theirs?If it is giving advantages in pvp then yea be mad if it isnt then myob.

Posted: Jan 21st 2012 12:51PM Softserve said

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@alucard3000 I think it's the principle. It is for me and most I know. The thing is that there is no reason to trust that this won't go further.

We were told no stat based armor, originally. There wasn't even a caveat of "for now". Now that stat based armor is in the store.

Now they're telling us there is no plan currently for "higher level" armor. Why should I believe that given this?

If they ever decide to sell anything in the store that's around the level cap, which seems more possible today than even a month ago, then PvP will be affected too. Why wait until it happens?
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 1:13PM OutThere said

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@alucard3000

Alas, if this were only true. The problem isn't that players care what other people buy or don't buy or how they play the game. The problem is that the game begins to be designed FOR THE STORE. And, believe it or not, that does effect all the players.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 1:15PM Plastic said

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@alucard3000

Because eventually it does influence how we all play the game.

For starters, it hurts the crafting community by offering a store solution in lieu of actually improving the low-level economy.

Furthermore, once an item is placed in the store, Turbine is encouraged to incentivise its purchase at every turn, and this often eads to less than desirable game-tweaks, i.e. increased grind, stifling of in-game trading, and general neglect of necessary improvements to basic gameplay mechanics (legendary-item leveling, for example).

Ever wonder why the mind-numbing deed grind was never adjusted to be more reasonable, and thus enjoyable? There's a fix for that in the store. Ever wonder why they are removing the ability to solo-obtain Draigoch gear? There will be a fix for that in the store as well.

Every time a new item is introduced to the store it has an effect on the game and Turbine's decision making process in regards to the game.

Very simply, adding an item to the store often changes the simple question of "is this game feature enjoyable to our players" into "will our players tolerate this feature while at the same time be drive to spend money in our cash shop?"

This is a problem, as it can ruin a game. I could understand if a company had to go this route to keep the game afloat, but in this case, Turbine has already came out and said that their original store model was a huge success, tripling their revenue. ROI was the highest selling expansion ever, proving that if Turbine simply releases additional content, instead of advantage, the game will continue to thrive. However, that is not enough for Warner Bros., and it's obligated to it's shareholder to milk as much possible revenue out of this game as possible. Unfortunately, increased profit today often fails to take into account the loss of customer's tomorrow, and I, for one, have stopped playing since this announcement.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 1:30PM alucard3000 said

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@Plastic "For starters, it hurts the crafting community by offering a store solution in lieu of actually improving the low-level economy"
Well I am one who doesn't find "crafting" enjoyable nor the aquiring of items needed for such endeavors so it is no skin of my teeth if I have an alternative option rather than waste time doing something I find unenjoyable> I have a fulltime job and am not looking for the equivalent in what is supposed to be a game.
And sure if they are doing stuff like increasing grind times to get you to buy from the store I see your point but is there proof that what they are doing is affecting those that sub to the game?Has the sub based portion's grind changed from what it was before there was a store?If it hasn't then there is your solution pay for a sub.If it has and you can prove it then you may have a point.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 1:42PM Irem said

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@alucard3000
Once a company figures out they can make a lot of money off people who would rather spend money than put time and effort into the game, they have very little reason to continue rewarding time and effort. In other words, if you like playing games that don't require you to pull out your card all the time to make them playable, or you enjoy any kind of ingame progression, this affects you.

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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 1:45PM Plastic said

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@alucard3000 "Well I am one who doesn't find "crafting" enjoyable nor the aquiring of items needed for such endeavors so it is no skin of my teeth"

That may be the case, but I wasn't addressing your particular enjoyment of the cash shop (I understand there will be those who like it, that's why they put the items in the store to begin with).

I was addressing your statement that one's ability to purchase items in the cash shop has no bearing on other players. I just strongly disagree with that statement. Whether the bearing is negative may be debatable, but it definitely has a bearing on other players, VIP and non-subscribing alike.
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 12:49PM Softserve said

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Also, for the higher up response. I think the "total numbers of unique participants" is more important than the "tenor". They know people aren't pissed.

The concern in the forum now seems to be that they won't think enough unique people are pissed (keep in mind that posts to that specific section are not reflected in the forum home page -- so 1000+ posts in what's essentially a hidden thread is significant), despite how much complaining is going on outside of the forums.

So if you are one of the people who play this game and really hate this change, I would suggest go to that thread and post in it now.

Posted: Jan 21st 2012 12:52PM Softserve said

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@Softserve Sorry, "are pissed" not "aren't pissed".
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 1:07PM Dunraven said

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Oh my god can the hardcores cry any harder?

Really who gives a damn about gear that you can obtain the eqivelant if not better of in a couple days? And News Flash people gear in LOTRO means jack shit to begin with...most folks get whatever and cover it with a cool looking cosmetic piece anyway...unless you are on the very fringe of the highest end raiding (all three of you) then you are playing the game for other reasons. Personally I could give two damns what they sell if it keeps money coming in and expansion packs rolling out it's fine by me.

Don't hand me integrity Bullshit when some joker with a couple extra computers can farm his way to uberness anyway....hell in LOTRO he doesn't even need to pay the price of a sub to get there.

Posted: Jan 21st 2012 1:17PM OutThere said

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@Dunraven

Well, I for one can hardly wait until they start selling raid gear in the store. I wish they would just do it and get that done for us. Then I could just stop grinding so much crap in the game and just go out and kill stuff.

And no, I am not being entirely sarcastic. This is where they are going. Pull the band-aid off already and get it done. Then we can all decide if we want to play the game that puts everything in the Store.

Just Do It!
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Posted: Jan 21st 2012 1:55PM Dunraven said

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@OutThere Well honestly the only people who have a issue with it are those in which pixles hols some weird notion of self worth in their real lives.....They can't stop it however developers know there is a mountain of cash to be made...yeah they will hold some lip service to appear to retain their e-cred...but the gears are already in motion...

95% of the people who play these games never once visit forums nor do they visit sites like this..so they never hear the QQ. They see a piece of gear they can buy with points and think cool...the money comes into the company the customer is happy and in some far away basement a hardcore screams Noooooo as he slams another hotpocket into the microwave....life goes on.
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