| Mail |
You might also like: WoW Insider, Joystiq, and more

Reader Comments (46)

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 8:21AM Primal Zed said

  • 3 hearts
  • Report
I played MMOs back when 'Need vs Greed' was a totally player-driven model. People would sit around looking at the loot, someone will invite people who need the item to roll. If no one rolls for Need, then everyone will roll to sell the item. Whoever wins the roll gets it. It was simple, straightforward, and no one complained (unless someone just nabbed the item and ran off, in which case that person's name would be spread around as someone to avoid grouping with).

At some point, after an in-game setup for Need before Greed was introduced to games, what constituted a Need or a Greed roll became muddled. The justifications of "Well it let me roll Need, so that means it's allowed" or "I 'Need' the gold from selling this" started to come up. Players insisted that there was ambiguity and personal interpretation involved. Groups went from playing as a team to playing for themselves.

I just preferred when the Need before Greed mentality was the norm, rather than the Need Need Need that seems to have become prevalent these days.

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 10:07AM Scuffles said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Primal Zed

Agreed 1,000,000%

I too remember raiding when sometimes loot distribution took longer than the raid itself and I didn't mind one bit. I too was happy at first that games started adopting near instant need vs. greed rolling.

And I too was/am disappointed to see that shortly there after everyone and their cat just rolled need with a myriad of flimsy excuses used to back it.
Reply

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 5:25PM NeverDeath said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Primal Zed

I concur with this statement.
Reply

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 8:22AM MrsAngelD said

  • 3 hearts
  • Report
I personally enjoy GW style of loot dispensing. That way at the end of running whatever it is I just worked hard with my team to run I still get something even if it's not a rare item. At least then I don't feel like I wasted my time. I mean let's face it these days I'm no longer a young person with little responsibility my time is precious and I really don't want to spend weeks trying to get that one particular item from the end of of run or a particular boss.

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 8:23AM warpax said

  • 2.5 hearts
  • Report
no, i do not like N/G.
I would love to see a loot system where everyone who participates gets useful to them, loot rewards. Maybe remove loot "drops" and instead use a token system where everyone in the group gets the same amount of reward tokens to spend at a merchant or quest giver where they can choose from a list of all the available loot from that particular dungeons loot table.

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 9:18AM fallwind said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@warpax no thanks...

Tokens are dull and predictable. I know, *exactly* how many bosses I need to kill to buy X, I know roughly how long it will take to down that many bosses, so I have a very good idea when I can afford X (+/- a few days).

If that time is too short, then players will complain that the devs are "giving away free epics", and if it is too long players will feel discouraged that it will take months and months to see any meaningful progress.
Reply

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 9:25AM warpax said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@fallwind waiting on a RNG God to smile on you comes with the same issues however you have more control over what you get and how quickly with some sort of token system
Reply

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 9:50AM DarkWalker said

  • 3 hearts
  • Report
@warpax

You should like GW2, then:

- Dungeons award a token that can be exchanged for any piece of gear from that dungeon. Completing a whole dungeon set (which includes a multitude of armor pieces plus matching weapons of every kind available in the game) will still take a lot of work, but players are guaranteed to never leave the dungeon empty-handed.

- Events - which includes GW2's equivalent to raids, boss fights that might be done by dozens of players at a time - rewards players with an unified currency (Karma) that can be used to get any event-related items, plus NPC services and other nifty things. I believe they will also award players with random (but individually awarded) loot, though it seems every such piece of loot will also be available for purchase with Karma (i.e., players can get lucky and obtain whatever they desire early, but by hoarding Karma they should be guaranteed to still get the item in a reasonable time frame even if the RNG hates them).

- For mobs and crafting nodes, there will be normal loot, but it will be awarded per player; there should be no place in the whole game where players roll against each other for loot.
Reply

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 9:56AM warpax said

  • 2.5 hearts
  • Report
@DarkWalker Really? that sounds awesome. im gonna have to give GW2 a look. Thanks for the info
Reply

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 8:34AM Dunraven said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
"MMO gaming: It's all about the loot."

No.....that is just what the gaming media tells people it's all about.

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 8:34AM Cyclone Jack said

  • 2.5 hearts
  • Report
No, I've never been a fan of N/G system, as it's too easily abused, and it limits the overall rewards, forcing players to run the content dozens of times. Personally, I like systems like CoH and GW, where everyone is rewarded, since, you know, everyone participated. Unfortunately, in a raid-centric game, the developers need the slower dispersal of rewards, else raid teams would gear up much faster, leading to more drought between new content.

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 8:41AM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
No, NBG doesn't work anymore. The era of MMO's being a niche community, where many people actually worried about their in game rep, is over. I personally feel the loot should just be automatically distributed by the system randomly, with a group message on who got what. Too many people claim need, when they don't really have any for NBG to ever work like it used to.

Posted: Jan 20th 2012 12:21AM psycros said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@(Unverified) : I really hate to agree, but I do. I gave up even trying to group in DCUO after I realized that *EVERY* raid was an Ebay auction, with each person waiting to see if somebody is naive enough to hit 'greed' so they can immediately 'need' everything. Its sickening..even WoW had a better crowd back when people actually grouped before the endgame.
Reply

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 8:47AM Irem said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I had that freaking song from the video in the image stuck in my head yesterday for some reason.

Overall I prefer assigned drops, as long as they're not bound to the person who receives them. That way there doesn't need to be hurt feelings and a complex system of social line dancing over minor loot that's probably going to get sent to an alt or vendored anyway, and if people really want something they can trade or whatever. Then again, I think need vs. greed is just one of those things that's only a problem because it exists solely as the solution to another problem that could be managed better: random loot drops. Sometimes random loot is fun, like when you're farming or you don't really feel the pressing need for something, Then when something cool drops, it's a pleasant surprise and everyone can roll fairly for it. When it's stuff people need or desperately want for their character and they've been working for it for a long time, it's really not fun to see it go to someone else, even with arguably fair loot systems in place.

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 4:14PM Space Cobra said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Irem

As was about to post almost the same thing.

I know it can be...well, I don't know the correct phrase to use....so, let's start with an analogy.

In kindergarten (well, some kindergartens that had NICE teachers) some kids won a prize, but some teachers awarded group effort and gave out similar prizes to all involved.

Sometimes, I feel this is needed, particularly on certain enemies or raids. True, you do get your own reward at the end of the quest and I am an adult and can congratulate folks on certain loot drops, but there are times it feels....wrong.

Take the incident of taking out a World Boss: You get many folks together, you spend time wrangling them up then finally you have a full "raid group" so you attack him (SWTOR example I am using here). Your group wins and for...about 16 people only 1-2 items drop off the boss.

I dunno...I'd expect maybe 25% of the group should have a chance to get something, especially for a rare, so that'd be 4 people in a 16-person group. Actually, it'd be nice if everyone got an item (besides money), maybe a unique blue/green drop specific to that boss?

It's just a minor bug with me, but I don't get or see many Purple drops. Only got one last night for the first time (and it was a tad under my level, but I tend to be over-level for my area).

Really, if more people had access, not just me, it'd be better.
Reply

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 8:49AM Dumac said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I don't know, i guess it's okay, never thought about it much. Loot isn't that big of a deal to me and i never gave it much thought.

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 9:15AM scrubmonkey said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
If there's a loot, and there's a system for distributing it, there's ALWAYS going to be some tool trying to abuse the system.

DDO has an assigned drop system as well. If 5 people are in the group, 5 "named" items (+ a few extra trivial things) drop from the chest, all pre-assigned with the option of passing your item over to someone else in the group. This STILL doesn't stop those epic, multi-page threads from popping up in the forums over "my character needed that loot moar and he passed it to a friend!" nonsense.

People will be people.

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 9:44AM happyfish said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@scrubmonkey This is pretty much how I feel too. Need vs Greed is as simple as it gets for assigning loot. No matter how complicated the roll system mistakes (or jerks) happen.

I would like timers to be relaxed though. It can be stressful sorting through a dozen items in 30 seconds trying to decide whether you really need an item, or would just like to have it.
Reply

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 9:23AM MithranArkanere said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Most of the time people is lazy to check the item and compare it with what they have or need, have bad memory to remember if the item would be good for an alternate character, or just greedy and want as much loot as possible, and so they choose "need" anyways most of the time.
A "Need vs Greed" system would have to check the currently equipped items, and give the item to the character that would improve their equipment the most with that item. If the item is some sort of consumable or valuable, give it to the character with the smaller stack or number of them in their inventory, and keep adding variables to check for fair distribution.
When no fair distribution patter can be applied to the item, then just assign it randomly.
But I've seen no game that does it properly.


The best systems is loot assignment like GW. During gameplay, the items get assigned randomly, at the end of dungeons or elite missions, each player can open the final chest once and get rewards. The stuff drop for you, everyone gets something, and if you don't want it, you can sell it or give it away later.
Diablo III method sounds nice too.

But these systems have the downside of requiring a good global trading system to be able to sell the stuff without wasting time spamming in some place, check prices by comparing to what others offer, and be able to play while things are getting sold. Not that it matters, since most games have such systems nowadays.
Still, that shows the bad points of games like GW, in which trading is utterly boring, slow and annoying for everyone but a small community of traders.
Ah... I so wish the Xunlai Marketplace was possible...

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 9:38AM DarkWalker said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
For me, when dealing with random groups:

- I pretty much prefer a fixed number of tokens/currency awarded in place of drops. The less RNG involved in gearing or getting rewards, the happier I am with the game.

- If RNG must be involved, Individual loot all the way. I really dislike having to roll against group mates.

- If the devs think forcing players to fight for loot is essential to have fun (in whatever deturpated way they must be defining fun), there are still better ways to distribute loot than Need before Greed; just go look at any successful, long standing raiding PUG group, and you will see simple but better systems employed.

- If the devs refuse to implement any of the above, Need before Greed is, at least, better than pure unadulterated rolls. Though the devs should at least try to make the "need" roll only useful for players that want to keep and use the gear - say, by making anything won through a "need" roll impossible to sell and not usable in any kind of crafting system the game might have.

For a group that consists ONLY of friends - preferably real life friends, people that I can go to their homes and scream at them if they try to scam each other - or when I completely trust whoever is handling loot distribution, I'm quite OK with ad-hoc loot distribution.

In WoW, this goes to the extent that I won't even look at loot tables for heroics and raids. I only plan my characters around whichever gear I can get for VP or JP, and I refuse to farm anything which is a random drop, and doubly so for anything I would have to roll against group members.

Featured Stories

Engadget

Engadget

Joystiq

Joystiq

WoW Insider

WoW

TUAW

TUAW