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Reader Comments (53)

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:02PM NeverDeath said

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LOL.

We got to move that color teeeeVEEEEEEEEEEEEeee

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 3:17PM hami83 said

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@NeverDeath Glad I'm not the only one that appreciates a classic!
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Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:14PM Critical Mass said

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Sometimes the only winning move is not to play.

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 5:06PM ArcherAvatar said

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@Critical Mass
How about a nice game of chess?
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Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:23PM theBeast said

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Eve production calc ftw.

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:32PM KvanCetre said

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I know with WoW I started for the game and eventually I reached a point where it was about the system. I had spreadsheets that told me how manu heroics I had to run to get all the badge gear, and which badge gear was the biggest upgrade.

So I ran heroic after heroic and maxed my gear on my two 80s at the time.... And for what? I didn't raid at all. I had no intention to return to raiding.

I find myself doing both now, but focusing heavily on the game side.

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:33PM theBeast said

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If a game lets me CREATE stories, create my own experience outside of the quest grind then I will enjoy the experience in the virtual world. ( If they even bothered to make it a world instead of a skin).

If it is a themepark or F2P that shoves the mechanics in my face, puts a dollar sign on everything, then I am forced to play the system.

The first one is harder to design. The second one is easier.

The first one can be immersive. The second can be immersive too, but in an OCD kind of way.

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:34PM Space Cobra said

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Yes folks, from the huge (only 44, but it is a private blog dontchya know?) response, Koster made a FAQ and in it, he replied to some folks and even me (Shush! I am taking credit for that response! ;P ).

As to his assertions, he is right. You do have to view the game or system in one way, then you could tear it down and view it in another and see how tech limits (or people limits) fit in with the game. It's an old art form and glad he mentions it.

And actually, this is a tricky question.

Because, players are individuals. This is sorta like asking do you Min/Max a system or do you just play and have fun?

Min/Maxers, as usual can come from either/or camps or both. I've known most players to just enjoy the game, but it is that enjoyment that causes them to think more about it and contemplate it more. It causes anything from Memes ("What is Mankirk's wife doing?") to fictional extrapolations to...a look at game systems. Even in tabletop DnD, there will be people who will Min/Max and some will do it purely from the start, others will "warm up to it" and others will like the numbers game AND the gaming world.

It is true, sometimes Min/Maxing ruins games, but we are dealing with the internet. I hate to talk of griefing in glowing terms, but this is part of the "problem" of players finding easy solutions. People are people and they will go the path of least resistance. Sure, they may, at first, walk around the castle to the other side for a piece of candy, but eventually, they will tire of the walk and walk *through* the castle (this assumes a RL castle and a party held there for entertainment/immersion).

So, IMO, you can either combine both or make your game, or a particular system, favorable to one or the other view.

I mean, I definitely play for immersion and feeling and I "suspend my disbelief" also, but I can enjoy min/maxing to a degree (unless it gets too hard/complicated or waiting for hard-to-get drops). I am certainly not the most ultimate Min/Maxer and I put myself in the "enjoy the game" camp, but I do dabble and think what powers are used best (for me) in certain combos, etc.

Posted: Jan 17th 2012 2:26AM (Unverified) said

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@Space Cobra Acually, all told about 2500 people read it and there have been arguments and threads on a bunch of sites and blogs. :) You should feel special!
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Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:35PM toychristopher said

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It depends heavily on the game. Look at how immersive a game like Portal 2 is! I don't need to game the system to have fun.

Some games don't really make obvious what it is you have to do to "win" and in MMOs especially you are often competing with other players, so there is too much at stake not to play to win.

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:37PM Sorithal said

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This reminds me of how raiding's devolved in MMOs like WoW - it's less about the fun of experiencing content as a guild now, and more just about gear, stats, gearscore, DPS output, etc. Same with PvP.

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:39PM Sorithal said

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This reminds me of how raiding has devolved in MMOs like WoW and such. Overall the population seem to care less about having fun experiencing the content with their guild, and are more just focused on their DPS, gearscore, or whatever. PvP is similar in MMOs.

Many people like to pose as elitists these days to be cool, I guess.

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 3:45PM Rengar said

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@Sorithal
I think it's more to facets of the same coin. Just like sports raiding is split into two categories.

1. Just for fun, Casual, no pressure, everybody gets a trophy level. (Recreational League) (Non-Competitive)

2. Professional, Competitive, no mercy, must be the best Hardcore level. (Select/Professional League) (Competitive)

Obviously there are variances in those two groups but in general #1 just takes however they get and tries to enjoy themselves regardless success or failure, and #2 is out to succeed whatever it takes (within reason).

It isn't so much that raiding in WoW or any other game changed more than it was the advent of people that want to be Professional Style Raiders.
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Posted: Jan 16th 2012 4:29PM ElfLove said

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@Rengar

"1. Just for fun, Casual, no pressure, everybody gets a trophy level. (Recreational League) (Non-Competitive)"

Oh...wow...that's an amazingly bias and frankly, very insulting way of looking at casual players.

When did it become the norm, for 'pro' players to look at casaul like we are all drooling morons who just want a trophy for doing nothing?!

I'm sorry that you can't appreciate, or even see that some casuals love to be challenged, and compete, but without the drama, egos, and ePeen that some 'professional' gaming avenues have.

Some of us, we don't want to put up with that, we want to have fun, meet our own personal goals, and still keep our friends, and family close to us while we play.

I guess "hardcores" will never, ever, understand what it means to play a game on anything approaching a normal level. You think we want gear in the mail? Boy...you don't understand us AT ALL.



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Posted: Jan 16th 2012 5:16PM (Unverified) said

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@ElfLove
I think you just overreacted terribly. Not only did he say what he said in a completely reasonable tone, but he even mentioned the gradient nature of both groups. I think you're just in a middle-ground camp, and -think- you understand the casual player because you're not as hardcore as some. There are actually a lot of casual players who fit that description unashamedly, and you getting loud and angry over it just shows that you're not willing to see both sides of the argument.

"but without the drama, egos, and ePeen that some 'professional' gaming avenues have."

"I guess "hardcores" will never, ever, understand what it means to play a game on anything approaching a normal level."

Pot and kettle, my friend. That's a pretty gross generalization of "hardcore" players.
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Posted: Jan 16th 2012 7:49PM Resurge said

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@(Unverified) was gona reply but unverified here said what i was thinking perfectly ...take it down a notch elflove ..hmm, seems like you overreacted to me on some thread in the past as well? i forget, maybe im wrong

Anyway ...you like being offended on the internet dont you? Nothing Rengar said was offensive in the least to either side, you however took the opportunity to take at least 2 cheap shots at what you "perceived" him to be. You don't even know if he's a hardcore raider or not, you just assume whatever you need to amp the drama up a notch, so you can be all offended over nothing
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Posted: Jan 16th 2012 2:42PM jimr9999us said

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I wasn't aware they were mutually exclusive.

Posted: Jan 16th 2012 3:06PM Ceridith said

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@jimr9999us
They don't have to be, but today's MMOs tend to shove the system in your face by forcing you to min/max... particularly for raiding and PvP.
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Posted: Jan 16th 2012 4:36PM ElfLove said

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@Ceridith

I kinda, well I think I blame some of the 'new' gamers of today. It seems like they lack the ability to imagine, innovate, or think outside of a very tiny box. Some of them even have a real hard time grasping things such as wit, and sarcasm....it makes socialization in MMO really difficut.

They don't see a vast world to explore, and heaps of 'living art' appreciate...they see a little box of numbers, that they have to make larger, to get to the next set of numbers.

Now granted not all new players are this way, but I've noticed a very disturbing trend towards just pure numbers play...in leu of anything else.

I swear they could make the game 'just' numbers....and some folks wouldn't notice.

it just...it feels like imagination is at risk. That's why I stick to RP servers now, they have the small silver threads of creativity....for now.



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Posted: Jan 16th 2012 9:11PM jimr9999us said

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@ElfLove
The only thing that puts imagination at risk is mmorpg development for the lowest common denominator.

TOR with its phasing and pathing I thought was a step in that direction...we need real choice in the paths we choose to travel.

I used to be optimistic about an epic open world mmorpg. I remain so :)
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