Raph Koster: Immersion is not a core game virtue

@theBeast If you go back and re-read my posts on F2P, you will see that I didn't say I loved it. I explained why in my opinion it was not "evil." I didn't actually express a preference one way or the other.

@Wolf of Thorns

Which is a truly immersive, great game.

@Hurbster
What things exactly do you find immersive in SWTOR if I may ask? Preferably without generalizing.

@Wolf of Thorns
No, SWG was long dead before that. Remember, it didn't go to the NGE because of a thriving population.

@KvanCetre

It went to the NGE because LA wanted WoW numbers in a game that would never have those kinds of numbers, because it appealed to a certain type of gamer. One that wanted to live in a fully immersive world, telling their own story rather than running through yet another themepark, fetching and killing and watching the occasional cutscreen. Those kinds of games - WoW, SWTOR, are perfect for today's attention deficit gamer (although at least WoW is fun) but not so much for those of us who actually enjoyed investing time and our own imagination into a game. LA wanted a WoW-SW fusion and it got it in SWTOR. Too bad they felt they had to kill SWG to do it..

@Hurbster
Wrong immersion, Hurb. The immersion I think is being discussed here is immersing yourself in a world, which leads to caring about your character. SWTOR offers immersing yourself in a character, which leads to caring about the world. At least, that's how I see it.

And I love both, so yay.

@Space Cobra
That's exactly what I was getting out of that. Also;
" "I see the ways in which the worlds I once dove into headlong have become incredibly expensive endeavors, movies-with-button-presses far more invested in telling me their story, rather than letting me tell my own." "
Not exactly the most subtle dig at The Old Republic I've seen around.

He's really coming off as an "old guy shaking his fist" at every new MMO that "steps on his lawn" so to speak. No MMO has been released that has PROVEN immersion can be done recently, that's all. So its a little early to dig the grave and mourn the loss of MMOs that can immerse its players in its story.

swg and ultima both sucked , nobody played them , the only reason anyone remembers them is because they came out in 1983. Go ahead and tell me how it was the best thing ever (before the NGE of course) and then I'll ask you why it was C-C-C-C-Cancelled

@Space Cobra Telling Koster to broaden his horizons is like telling Mozart to be more creative... LOL

Have you ANY idea how many mechanics this man introduced into the once narrow-minded MMO dev culture? There are even things he didn't do because they were "limiting", but other MMOs after UO implemented those limiting mechanics because they were easier to implement and control.

Do you want an example? Auction houses. You think "they are fundamental", but no... think borader my friend. Without auction houses you need an alternative. Like, put up your own shop. In fact, in UO, this what many players did/do. They put up shop and be part of a broader economic/social network.

The presence of an all-encompassing and omnipotent auction house can ruin that experience... Somtimes, doing "less" is like "keeping a door open to more opportunities", and knowing where to cut it (what to do and what to not do) is very difficult but rewarding.

This man got many many choices right to the spot, he's a legend, and his post on his blog is a lament about what cannot be done on mobile phones. It's a technical limit he, himself, would like to be gone.

So, he's not an "old man" at all and his horizons are not a limit but an incentive to go and look beyond. He SURELY made errors with Metaplace, but that doesn't mean he's narrow minded. And he is the "counterweight" to Richard Garriott, who, on the contrary, did far more errors.

@pid

Even Mozart could be a spoiled brat at times.

And yes, I have an idea; I was there. Heck, I even posted some points against stuff like Item Decay; I remember.

The thing you are forgetting is he is "human", You are painting him as a "legend" but people burn out at times. People get set in ways. They forget or put aside their drives and ambitions and tenacity. And yes, while people respond to different things: A gentle push, a nice reminder, a big shove, a kick-to-the-pants, they need remminding and not a "Yes" man.

You mention to "think broader". And I see a post of lament. I feel this may be just a weak moment and maybe in the morning he will shake it off (or not) but he needs reminding. That's what I am seeing. Yes, there are tech limits, but DnD didn't have any "tech limits" for immersion. Immersion can be helped by tech, but you also do not need it. In fact, I already responded to his blog (pending approval) citing some examples from how kids view the world to radio vs. TV to what Roger Corman did with his movies (he thought outside the box to make his movies as cheap as possible and while we may question the quality, he did make memorable movies. The lesson here is to innovate when you have to. Think "outside the box" and some he just seemed like he needed a reminder of that).

I don't see mobile tech as limiting; that's like saying UO was limited (and it was, but it wasn't according to rosy-colored collective memory). Immersion is a personal thing: different from one person to the next. I also mentioned some examples of that in my blog reply. Look at it this way: a paperback book is immersive and yet it is low-tech. Sometimes to solve problems is not just thinking broader but thinking ways around problems and limitations. I find that kind of solution solving very freeing. Thinking within the limits of your budget/tech and going around them.

Every creative person faces challenges from time to time. Sometimes they just need someone to show them perspective and to remind them of things they mmay've not thought of in a while.

@tooright

It was ccccccancelled because LA believed there were too many gamers like you, incapable of playing more than one game at a time.

@(Unverified)
You didn't even read his post if that is what you concluded. Way to jump to conclusions based on headlines?

@h4ngedm4n

Exactly. Many comments here show that people are too dumb to understand what they read. It seems they all should sit less on their butts and go back to reading courses with12-year old kids. Wait... most are probably 12-year old kids with AD...

@(Unverified)

You are the reason why we don't get more candid, human, emotional responses from the game development community.