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Reader Comments (132)

Posted: Jan 13th 2012 5:14PM kevinrahl said

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Turbine is going to sell low to mid level stat equipment. I say big deal. It is not going to effect anyone else's enjoyment of the game. It reallly amuses me when people get their panties all in a bunch over something so trivial.

Posted: Jan 13th 2012 5:15PM Ceridith said

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@kevinrahl

Give it 6 months to a year, and that will probably change.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 7:01PM kevinrahl said

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@Ceridith

Been playing since launch, I still say that this will impact nothing.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 5:14PM Ceridith said

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Annnnnd... looks like my hesitation to come back to LotRO after the F2P conversion was legitimate.

Posted: Jan 13th 2012 5:16PM avidlurker said

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Here we go again with the cash shops flipping.

Now let's take the dev comment stated in the update at face value:
Are people rushing in there too, not letting themselves actually play those levels up to end game?

Because... the AH or cash shop shouldn't really be the first and only stops when looking for low level gear, now should they?

Posted: Jan 13th 2012 5:47PM Jorev said

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Another example of a developer with no integrity and the slippery slope of offering so called fluff items in cash shop games.
Pay to win.

Posted: Jan 13th 2012 6:06PM Lenn said

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@Jorev Win what?
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 4:37AM Utakata said

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@Lenn

*Points to the subject of the article above*

...read, before posting.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 10:32AM Zeddakis said

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@Utakata

"Win what?"

Exactly please tells us win what?

If this is gear aimed at new players, well whenever I roll an alt or a friend of mine rolls a character I have one of my characters make them armor and weapons to use in the game, so what is the difference?
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 11:29AM Lenn said

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@Utakata The question remains: win what? I think Turbine made a big mistake. There are much better ways of improving the situation. But saying this low-level, sub-par armour is "pay to win" is downright ridiculous, when there's nothing to win. Unless I'm overlooking something. Hence my question: win what, exactly?
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 12:20PM Utakata said

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@Lenn

Okay, now you have clarified what the question is instead of leaving as a drive-by troll, I will answer it for you. But there's no guarantee you will like the answer. This question IMO is as convoluted and turgid as "what is free to play?" Since anytime you paying something towards it with exception of donations, is it truely free? But I digress...

....but there does appear a certain amount of ignorance on your part of what it is to win in an MMO...or least what it is to progress. And a fundemental principal and mechanics of how MMO's work that you have seemed to have missed.

The term is used I believe, that any item that can be bought with real money that gives the player an advantage, no matter how small or inconsequential that advantage is. It's term that is applied because it's not the end result as in winning like say a jackpot of a lottery or coming first in a relay race...but a constant state of always progressing yourself in an environment of an MMO. Thus everytime you level, every time you complete a quest and everytime you recieve a reward you are winning. Therefore, an item you did not use any skill in purchasing but gives the you an advantage over achieving with leveling, quest completing and rewards while reducing risks and skill investing into said activities is in fact paying to win. Because it simply helps you win better.

The question now is if you don't think that is "winning" then what do you think progression is? Because reardless of what you call it, you are paying for an advantage. This is unethical anytime you and any developer classify it as a game.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 1:53PM Zeddakis said

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@Utakata

So what is the difference between this and making gear for an alt or friend when they start the game? Then people who do this are just as bad as the developers who do this then, since they are helping people or themselves get an advantage they did not "earn" in game?
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 2:44PM Lenn said

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@Utakata There are items obtainable in LotRO that are vastly superior to that armour, either through crafting it yourself or buying from others, or as quest rewards. The trick is to have patience, since you need to get the materials or in-game gold or do the quests first. A more appropriate term would be "pay-to-be-lazy".

You can throw semantics at it all day, but there's no "win" in a game like LotRO. Calling a swindle like this (yes, it is a swindle) "pay to win" is as much a "drive-by troll" as asking "win what?"

Who's the bigger troll, the troll or the troll that trolls him?

With that off my chest, as much as I don't think this particular thing is worth all the indignation, the possible consequences of it *are*. If there is a tier I and II version, it doesn't take much of a leap to assume we'll be seeing tier III, IV, V, etc. before long. It still won't be pay to win, but it will damage the in-game economy a lot, and it doesn't bode well for the trust that people have had in Turbine over the years. Lately, they've done nothing but making sure that trust gets eroded more and more, one little bit at a time.
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 3:45PM Utakata said

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@Zeddakis

You are comparing apples to oranges. It's still ingame...that's the big difference - someone used ingame skill to obtain it. Only F2P apologist grasping at strawmans would attempt to obscure that line. Just saying.

@Lenn.

It doesn't matter how superior ingame gear is to that as I pointed out. But it's mostly likely superior to gear that has no stats. Thus this is still problematic. There is no "yeah but's" in this.

Semantics, philosophy and/or definitions...again it does not get away from the as I also pointed there's is an issue of paying for ingame advantages. And as I indicated, if you disagree with the usage of the term "pay to win" you must also disagree with the usage of the term "free to play". I am only using terms what is now industry standard. And not to mention, there is merrit to the term "pay to win" as I point out, as I am sure there is merrit to the term "free to play".

Finally, you didn't troll in the end (it came off as a troll at first)...because you came back and gave account to my protest and least reasonably explained yourself. I just now disagree with your explanation. /shrug
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Posted: Jan 14th 2012 5:46PM Zeddakis said

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@Utakata

"You are comparing apples to oranges."

I don't think so. Either you want everyone to "earn" everything they have in the game and earn everything they accomplish in the game or you don't.

I don't see a difference between the person who brought a set of armor from the developer or one who got their main or a friend to make it. Neither person "earned" what they have on that character. Either way the character has an advantage over someone just starting in the game who decides not to pay for armor and does not have a main or friend to make it.

Now if this was a case of say where from level 1-20 the only way to have armor with these types of perks was buying from the developer then I could see the issue, but in this case you can have someone make you better or buy better on the AH with in game money. This is nothing to get all worked up about. Clearly you just want something to complain about and have decided to leach on to this, so whatever just keep on ranting. I'll just keep shaking my head at your failure to make a real point here.
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Posted: Jan 17th 2012 12:23AM Jorev said

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@Zeddakis
The difference is that you expended effort in-game to make those items, acquire those ingredients, trade for those items, in essence earning them, not reaching into your real world wallet which has no place in a virtual world.
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Posted: Jan 17th 2012 6:03AM Zeddakis said

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@Jorev

So then you guy's issue has nothing to do with the win part of the argument, because if it did then you should want every character to "earn" what they have. This would require them to "earn" in game everything they have no "free" upgrades for alt or friends. You could buy in the AH, because you could use money earned in game.

You guys then just seem to be against the F2P model. I play both subscription and F2P games and if a game is worth supporting I just support the developer through whatever method they have chosen for their game. What LOTRO has done here does nothing to take away from my enjoyment of their game, so I will continue to play and support them.

Many of these posts just seem to be made by people who either do not like the F2P in general or have something against LOTRO specifically.
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Posted: Jan 17th 2012 8:02PM Jorev said

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@Zeddakis

I do believe every character should earn their way.
I would certainly prefer and support a system of mechanics which did not allow items or coin to be dropped, or to be given to another character, or traded without a nearly equal value of items or coin exchanged.
But pay to win MMOs go farther by violating the virtual boundaries. Cash shop games will always manipulate content in order to generate more income which results in a lesser quality MMO experience.
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Posted: Jan 13th 2012 6:50PM Utakata said

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Shame on you, Turbine!

Posted: Jan 13th 2012 6:53PM Deadalon said

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Hmm lets see.... Low and mid level items are needed.... And why is that? Turbine ... why is that?

Increase the stats on the low and mid level items maybe to solve the issue?

Nah... that would not make the company any money.

Shamless and without any sort of morality. How on earth can these companies be allowed to say that this is beeing done because of ingame issues when THEY themselfs create those ingame issues.

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