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Reader Comments (90)

Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 12:36PM fallwind said

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@Dril "the general principle that MMOs are, despite all their shortcomings, intended first and foremost to be alternate realities that are closed to the outside world beyond necessary interference"

[citation needed]

sorry, but MMO's are, despite all their shortcomings, intended to be FUN. You can make the most closed off universe you want, but if it is boring as heck to play you will not keep a single player.

Now, what you find fun and what I find fun may (and likely are) two very different things.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 1:48PM rzero said

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@Dril "This is *especially* important in anything of a competitive nature, but even to the everyday player it's hugely demoralising to see something that is only available if you have real-life money"

Your point is hilariously ironic given the article's mention of critics of the cash-shop model rarely having actually ever played one of the games they criticize. If you had bothered playing, you would have immediately noticed that in Bigpoint games you can pay with real OR virtual currency.

It seems in your mind the only currency that should be allowed in an MMO is 'time', and those who grind the most should progress the furthest and have the best stuff. But time=money. If someone wants to pay real money to avoid losing their precious time, then good for them. It's clearly a successful business model.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 3:23PM (Unverified) said

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@Dril if rift did an "unlimited free trial" to lvl. 45 would that be unfair?

the people who pays subscription would have an advantage over the ftp there, but if you don't want to or can't spend money, what's more unfair?, playing at a disadvantage or not playing at all?

the point of view that people get the complete game after the item shop boss, and the rest is the free trial is a valid one, however locking the best gear with a price tag is bad idea imo. there are better ways to get back the expenses and revenues from a game, or at least more tasteful ones.

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Posted: Jan 4th 2012 9:09AM Utakata said

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@fallwind

Since you are at it...

"sorry, but MMO's are, despite all their shortcomings, intended to be FUN. You can make the most closed off universe you want, but if it is boring as heck to play you will not keep a single player."

[citation needed]

You don't get to contruct a strawman on someone else's strawman....and spin it as logic. Unless you are a MMO developer with special insite that is eluding us. Just saying.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 12:28PM BigAndShiny said

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I completely agree. And how is paying $90 (more than enough to buy quite a lot in pretty much every F2P MMO's item shop) extra on top of the $60 base cost for a collectors edition store with exclusive items, mounts and gear fair then?

The SWTOR collector's store is clearly selling items (yes, for ingame money) that can only be purchased by paying $90 of real world money extra. That is F2P, and That is selling power in my opinion.


(and no I really dont care if 'every other MMO does it too with collectors edition items' because at least they dont have a full ingame store with masses of gear etc..)

So if you oppose Bigpoint, you should oppose 'Bioware' too.

Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 3:51PM Saucelah said

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@BigAndShiny

I don't get why this is voted down as it is simply factual.

Oh right, it said something that was critical of SWTOR.

It's fine to be a fan of a game, but it's just plain ignorant and counter-productive to ignore valid criticisms because you're a fan. In the sports world, they call that being a "Homer" -- and once realizing someone is a Homer, nothing else they have to say, even facts about their team, is worth listening to, because one can never be certain when there is a negative aspect of that fact being hidden or glossed over by a Homer, so one can never trust a Homer's opinion about that sport or team ever.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 12:30PM jimr9999us said

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Pay-to-win and sub based games have moved beyond business models and have become two separate genres of games imho.

I prefer having a virtual economy as part of my experience. Others obviously don't see the need to draw a line between the game and reality.

It's like arguing between sci-fi and fantasy at this point. Bothe models, err, genres are incredibly successful and will be with us for most of our lifetimes.

Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 12:34PM scrubmonkey said

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So, instead of "entertaining game mechanics" or "immersive world", we're now getting down to "innovative payment plan" as the selling point to MMOs.

My, how the genre has fallen.

Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 12:39PM Krelian said

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@scrubmonkey

Sir. please take all the upvotes i can give you.

Truer words were never spoken.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 12:43PM fallwind said

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@scrubmonkey we have no one to blame but ourselves....

Subs have been $15 since 2000.... when gas was $1.25 a gallon. If subs went up as much as gas you would be paying $40-50 a month. Inflation is a @#!%^.

The cost of making MMOs has skyrocketed, but the cost we are willing to pay has not. Developers (and investors) need other ways to get that money. You may be ok with a $50 sub, but that is simply outside my price range... if subs went that high I would no longer be able to afford my own sub, let alone ones for my family (at least not if I wanted to eat and have heat).

Cash shops are a great way for a few whales to support many players such as myself who can only afford the "discounted" price of $15/mo. Players who want "100% of everything" can buy out the cash shop every month and have their $50/mo sub.... people like me can still play at $15/mo and maybe buy a sparkle pony if money is not as tight that month. Everybody wins.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 12:53PM Krelian said

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@fallwind

Wrong. Dead wrong.

Many MMO devs have repeatedly said they are profitable @ 300k subs or more, and THIS at 15$ a month.

Also, people, you need to stop comparing games with real life all the time.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 1:14PM Irem said

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@fallwind
If you've bought an MMO, you've already accounted for inflation and increased development costs well before you start to pay a sub fee. It's in the $30-60 box price, which has gone up along with the prices of every other type of game. I'm a fan of the subscription model when done well, but sub fees are cream on top of the cake. The costs associated with maintaining an MMO don't come even close to requiring a $15 fee from every single player, and you can bet your ass that if game companies were feeling a pinch, it would never have stayed at $15. "Discounted"? Please. It could have been bumped up fifty cents a year and people would still pay it, generating a massive revenue increase for games like WoW. They don't do it because $15 a month is low enough for most people to justify, therefore drawing in more players than a higher fee would. It still borders on obscene, though, and they know it.

Ideally, a sub fee should guarantee regular new content and access to everything in the game, but hey, people showed them that they were willing to buy cash shop items on top of a sub fee and accept that their $15 was only ever meant to grant basic access to the game, so yeah, we are to blame, just not in the way you think.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 1:38PM fallwind said

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@Irem You must not have been buying games long.... I remember paying $60 for Quake 1, 2 and 3, Unreal, UT, UT2k3, Tribes 1, 2 and V, Command and Conquer 1, Red Alert, Anarchy Online, CoH, hell some of my Sega Genesis games cost in that range.

"Profitable" and "Return on investment" are two RADICALLY different things. One can be profitable so long as ones income is greater than ones ongoing expenses. However one only makes a return on investment when that profit reaches a greater number than the amount of money you spent in the first place to make the game. $100 million in the hole can take quite a bit of time to pay off if you are only barely breaking even (read: "profitable"). A game must remain profitable well after they make a return on investment to secure funding... that means not just a few box sales and a couple months of good sub numbers, it means long term income.

Games a decade ago could be made for just a couple mill, find me a tripple-A that has come out in the last 2-3 years that was made for less than 10-20 times that and I will be most surprised.

So there are three choices here: a) cash shop, b) $50 subs, c) damn few new mmos because investors wont risk $100mil on a game that may not give a ROI for a decade, if ever.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 2:25PM Jef Reahard said

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@fallwind

I see this a lot ("this" being the conventional wisdom that the cost of MMOs has gone through the roof), and yet I never see a) any data supporting that claim or b) reasons for the increase if it is in fact true.

Sure, we can say "inflation" and call it done, but is that really the whole story? Why are these games so much more expensive to make now than they were in 2000? The 2000-era games had more features and functionality. Is this huge theoretical cost upswing the result of better graphics?

Other than graphics, the genre has regressed, so I'm always curious to see where people come by the notion that "MMOs are more expensive now."
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 2:37PM Irem said

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@fallwind
"Games a decade ago could be made for just a couple mill, find me a tripple-A that has come out in the last 2-3 years that was made for less than 10-20 times that and I will be most surprised."

Games a decade ago could be made for hundreds of thousands of dollars, and didn't sell nearly as well as they do now. The market for games is much, much bigger. Find me a AAA title that needs to charge subs to make a return on their investment that ISN'T an MMO. Remember that we're discussing development costs here, not maintenance. Grand Theft Auto IV cost $100 million to make and was $40 at launch, I believe. The last estimate I heard for SW:TOR was $80 million to make, and the collector's edition of the game is something like $150. Could GTA IV justify a subscription fee to recoup development costs?
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 2:56PM fallwind said

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@Irem "Find me a AAA title that needs to charge subs to make a return on their investment that ISN'T an MMO. "

ok, find me a AAA that isn't an MMO that needs to maintain a stable of 50-100 devs, a full art team, servers, bandwidth, and advertising etc for a decade after launch?

As for why prices have increased: devs cost more money (salary inflation), renting a building for them to work in costs more money (rent goes up too), you have things like electricity and heat/cooling for said building, then you have the explosion in art assets needed to make a triple-A (some single items have more polygons than entire characters did a decade ago, you also have texturing on top of that). All that costs more money than it did a decade ago, in some cases (like art) several orders of magnitude more.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 3:29PM Irem said

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@fallwind
Maintenance costs less than development. Much, much less. We have established that the development costs for a AAA game can be covered and more by the box price, or else singleplayer games would never be profitable. So let's say we have a game that charges $15 a month, and maintains 350,000 players. That's $63 million a year. And while it's true that some of that goes toward maintenance, payroll, new features (hopefully), ect., the idea that companies are somehow suffering because they're only "allowed" to charge $15 is still ludicrous.

F2P is the way to go for games that fail to make money through subs because it removes the cost of entry and encourages people to spend that money later on. It's also a popular model because they can potentially get people to exceed both the price of buying the game and the cost of a monthly sub.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 3:36PM SFGamer69 said

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@fallwind

this. don't know if anyone here has actually ever worked for a publisher/developer, but this, as stated by Fallwind, is very true. I worked for several large publishers from 98-09, and I can tell you that thought the cost for certain things has gone down quite a bit(servers, bandwidth, computers)..the cost of asset creation has gone up quite a bit, and thus the budgets of the games themselves. At the onset of the PS3 and 360, i saw our budgets for games nearly double that of the previous generation, and your standard AAA title for those can be nearly 30-50 million and 2 years of development time.

It really is no wonder why the cost of an MMO would be as much as it is, considering the many other things involved in the creation of those types of games. And if you really dig into the early days of this genre, it really is a wonder that that the sub price for these games didn't start higher than 15.00/month to begin with.
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Posted: Jan 3rd 2012 4:55PM Jef Reahard said

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@SFGamer69

I'm curious about the budget doubling you mention. Why have the costs for asset creation gone up? If, as you mention, the tools and hardware costs have come down, is it primarily a function of labor costs?

Games, particularly MMOs, didn't just suddenly become harder and more expensive to make in the past five years (or whatever time frame we're talking about), so I'm wondering what changed, and what enabled developers to make more feature-rich games on such limited budgets in the past.
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Posted: Jan 8th 2012 8:56PM (Unverified) said

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@fallwind : Gas is a poor example, since the change in gas prices over the last decade is influenced more by ill-advised wars in oil-producing regions than just by inflation.

But if you plug "$15 in 2000" into the USA's official CPI figures, you'll get that you should now be paying a little over $20 per month. Which is still a noticeable jump which has not materialized in the MMO industry.
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