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Reader Comments (119)

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 4:45PM Beltyra said

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So you'll never play it because you dont understand game design?

I wont play WoW until my hunter can change into a shaman!

Too distant for you?

OK...

I wont play WoW until my mage can change into a warlock!


AC IS YOUR CLASS!

Before that is just an archtype.
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Posted: Dec 12th 2011 5:22PM DarkWalker said

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@Beltyra

I see AC as a half class, at most. More so because no single AC can be both healer and tank.

I would rather play a game where classes can fulfill more than two roles.
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Posted: Dec 13th 2011 9:31AM Malagarr said

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@DarkWalker

Wait a second..

So in a game like WoW, you wouldn't see the Warrior, the Death Knight, the Shaman, the Hunter, the Rogue, the Priest, the Warlock or the Mage as an actual class because none of those classes can both tank and heal?

You do realize how absurd your position is becoming, right?
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Posted: Dec 13th 2011 11:22AM DarkWalker said

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@Malagarr

I don't see those other classes as worth playing at all. I play only Paladins and Druids (and, with the upcoming expansion, I will consider Monks also, since they too will be able to do all roles).

BTW, by all accounts, Druids and Paladins are the most played classes in WoW by a wide margin. More so if you consider only max level characters that are actually accumulating VP - i.e., characters actually used for the end game; if you go by this metric, Paladins and Druids, added together, are more numerous than any other 3 classes added together. Also, for end-game characters, Rogues and Warlocks - two out of the 4 "pure" classes - are the least represented classes; the two added together don't even come closer to Druids or Paladins. Either there is one hell of a coincidence here, or players actually see the fact they can do any role as a good incentive to play the classes.
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Posted: Dec 12th 2011 5:19PM DarkWalker said

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Short answer: I don't play MMOs without respecs (or with limits to how often I can respec), no matter how good they are.

Long answer: I hate being restricted in which roles I can play, and I love tweaking my character all the time. Thus, my ideal game is one where I can tweak, or even completely change, my spec at will, and where all characters can fulfill any role.

I'm actually OK with no respecs when the skills/talents/whatever work like TSW ones (and, apparently, GW2 ones too), where the players can't change at all the skills they have learned, but they can actually get all skills in the game given enough effort. While it might take a long time before the character can use every skill, he is not prevented from getting any specific skill due to his previous choices.

Yeah, this actually means selecting which skill to learn in TSW is more meaningful than in most other MMOs. In WoW, TOR, etc, if I pick a talent and later change my mind, I can just go to a NPC and ask to "unlearn" it and pick something different. In TSW, though, if I started as a sword-using character, I can't go to a NPC and ask to unlearn swords and learn shotguns; instead, I keep what I already have in sword fighting, and start learning shotguns from scratch, something that should take as much effort as learning the sword skills took in the first place.

Also, as the icing on the cake, deciding which of the skills your character has learned he will be using means the fight actually starts in the preparation, before you even see your target; knowing the enemy's capabilities, and how you can use your skills to counter them, can be as important as the fight itself, which can actually allow the developers to make more demanding fights.

Posted: Dec 13th 2011 9:34AM Malagarr said

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@DarkWalker

OK, that's different.

What you're saying is that you prefer a skill based MMO to a class based MMO. I can completely understand that, and I enjoy skill based MMOs as well (actually, I like both skill and class based MMOs).

But that's entirely different than calling for AC swapping in a game like TOR. In a class bases system, swapping between classes really messes with the balance of the game.
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Posted: Dec 13th 2011 12:03PM DarkWalker said

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@Malagarr

Where do you think it messes with the balance? It's as "unbalancing" as allowing players to actually have more than one character per server.

Anyway, without either (fairly easy) AC switching, or else reworking ACs so at least some of them can do all roles, I don't see TOR as a MMO worth my time. I might get it, and play it, as if it was a single player KotOR3 (meaning I would get the game, reach max level with a character or two, and promptly unsubscribe) - but without enough flexibility for my tastes, I'm not going to play it as a MMO.

In fact, before learning about the AC locking - and before Consulars and Inquisitors gained tanking roles - I was going to pre-order TOR; I had already selected Bounty Hunters and Troopers as the classes I would play for the sole reason they were the only classes, at the time, that could do all roles. Even though I find the Trooper, conceptually, the least interesting class, the added flexibility of doing all roles would easily make it the sole Republic class for me.

For a MMO, my main requirement - something that trumps everything else whenever choosing options - is flexibility. This is not a solo game where I will use a character a couple dozen hours and throw it away; it's a game I'm supposed to stick with a character for a few hundred hours. If there is something I don't like about my character, and the game won't let me fix it, I'm more likely to change games than to start over with a new character; so, I want enough flexibility to actually fix anything I don't like about my character - even if the failure is just the fact I got bored with it's play style.

I only start to even look at other options if all of them offer me the same flexibility. It's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to WoW's MoP expansion; it will increase the number of classes I can actually play by 50% (from 2 to 3). It's why I'm really expecting GW2 - since every class can actually do all roles, it's 8 classes will mean a lot more to me than WoW's current 10 classes, of which I only consider playing the two most flexible ones. It's why I'm also really looking towards TSW; players will be able to change their characters in any way - say, from a tech-using sword fighter to a blood mage - given enough effort, since there will be absolutely no restrictions on learning skills.

In the end, I don't even try a game where I don't see enough flexibility. I've tried enough such MMOs in times past, and without fail I got burned out with them in about a week of constant play. I'm not going to try another such strict game, like TOR is shaping to be, no matter how good it appears to otherwise be.

Curious thing: with solo games, I often don't have any problem. If the game is not flexible enough for me, I can always mod/cheat it - except when they have overzealous copy protection systems, which is why I never purchase a game unless it's copy protection has already been broken. Also, I only mod/cheat on multiplayer games when everyone agrees - which is why I'm way pickier when purchasing multiplayer games.

It's also why I avoid console games whenever possible; no chance to mod = I'm mostly not interested in them.
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Posted: Dec 12th 2011 6:36PM mysecretid said

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I wish I could get a class respec for my main character in EverQuest II.

I love the character, and the years of history I've had playing that character, but as I approach the higher levels of the game, I find my Templar class gets less and less fun to play.

I wish I could just start the character in a different class, even if I lost a significant number of levels as a penalty. My much-storied main sits around collecting dust, while my upstart alts now threaten to outlevel him.

It ain't right, I tell ya ...

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 8:24PM JonBuck said

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Champions Online has the 'Retcon" system, where it wipes everything clean. If you had a character who started out a Beast Supernatural melee, you're a Retcon away from making him a Gadgeteer. In a game built to be as freeform as CO is, Retcons like that are really a necessity.

That said, I would like to see some kind of AC respec in TOR available up until level 20 or so. By then you know how the AC plays and if you want to continue playing it. Also, respeccing talent trees for credits is also a must.

Posted: Dec 13th 2011 6:18AM John Phaser said

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Actually there are 2 ways having respecs in City of Heroes : by paying and by playing.

Indeed, all players (free and VIP accounts) can get free respecs in taskforces, avalaible at lvl 24, 34 and 44.

This kind of TF may be done in 1 hour.

And NCsoft offers respecs for veterans.

Posted: Dec 13th 2011 12:11PM DarkWalker said

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@John Phaser

Respecs for real money = game not worth my time.
I see respecs as something almost as essential as resurrecting our characters (and something, in the games that offer free respecs, I actually do more tan rezzing my character). Charging for something essential (apart from the basic subscription) is something I can't live with in a game.
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Posted: Dec 13th 2011 10:44AM Jorev said

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No.
I hate this idea that you can just change your attributes, skills etc without having to reroll and start from scratch.
It ruins immersion and detracts from gamers who play smart and choose wisely.

Posted: Dec 13th 2011 12:07PM DarkWalker said

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@Jorev

I.e., lack of respecs punishes the players that try to immerse themselves in the game and build their characters by themselves, to their liking, while rewarding those that break immersion by googling for a cookie-cutter build.
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Posted: Dec 13th 2011 7:17PM StClair said

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@DarkWalker
You said it. I can't begin to guess how many characters I've built blindly, going only by concept and the (often misleading) names or descriptions of abilities, only to wind up with a barely-competent muddle missing vital skills/powers for their role (because they weren't made to sound "sexy", despite their importance) and barely able to keep up with the rest of the group.
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Posted: Dec 13th 2011 8:57PM Jorev said

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@DarkWalker

Nonsense.
How realistic is it for a character who trained months maybe years to max their skills or levels etc in certain areas of expertise to simply turn around and change them to something completely different without an equal investment of time ?
Answer: Not realistic at all, simply another convenience for the instant gratification generation.

Whilst a gamer who chose wisely and played intelligently utilizing those skills and levels etc is rewarded with other players instantly morphing themselves after the successful player who invented and developed the supposedly preferable build. That's bullshit. They should have to reroll from scratch.
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Posted: Dec 14th 2011 12:50PM Hawkido said

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@DarkWalker

Sorry dude, I have played all the betas out there.. you are rectally speaking... Ther IS re-speccing. I have done it in the beta. No big deal.

I have re-specced my agent operative from healing focused to DPS focus. First one was free, all others started costing credits.

What TOR is saying is that you cannot go back and switch from operative to sniper. It is NO BIG DEAL! Besides most all of your gear would be rubbish for your toon if you did that.

You are mis-interpreting what is said. And I can see why. My first thought on hearing the no re-speccing is exactly what your are thinking... Others have pointed this out, but again your anus chimes in before your mind absorbs this info. SO PLEASE TALK LESS AND LISTEN MORE.

Like I said I HAVE RESPECCED in game... it can be done... see the re-spec vendor in the station of your alignment... he's by class trainers. However you CANNOT CHANGE CLASS!

I hope everyone who has been eating this mis-information will regurgatate it upon the trolls and let them that cannot hear suffer in silence (and vomit).
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Posted: Dec 13th 2011 1:58PM John Phaser said

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Anyway, both solutions are possible in CoH : respecs for real money and/or respecs earned in game (or veteran's reward). We can see respecs as reward for small accomplishment. It seems to be logical.

Posted: Dec 14th 2011 3:13AM icetiger said

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it depends upon the gaming system, some systems really need an occasional respec, some systems do not

Posted: Dec 27th 2011 12:34AM Majicebe said

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This isn't 1996; re-specs should definitely be available in games these days. If you want to be all 'hardcore' and not re-spec, I think that should be up to you, but forcing everyone to play like you want to isn't for mainstream games these days, imo.

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