| Mail |
You might also like: WoW Insider, Joystiq, and more

Reader Comments (119)

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 12:54PM StClair said

  • 3 hearts
  • Report
When players aren't allowed to undo mistakes (short of rerolling), many quit and the rest resort to proven cookie-cutter builds.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 2:23PM DancingCow said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@FrostPaw

"Choice without consequences is not a choice."

I know some people feel really strongly about this but I have to say, lighten up.

It's a GAME.

Games are played for FUN.

Putting players in a situation where they can make permanent mistakes is not fun - except maybe for players with small whotsits who like to lord it over other players who have made mistakes.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 3:04PM DarkWalker said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@FrostPaw

I don't even know where to start.

You just described the kind of mindset that breeds games, including MMOs, I actively avoid.

It's a game. If I'm not allowed to correct my mistakes, or re-do my choices, in a game, I immediately leave. I deal too much with consequences in the real life, the last thing I want is to be bound to my errors in a game.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 8:20AM Misq2k said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I am for respec in some way or form people change thier minds or want to try diff builds all the time. Also the chance to switch between 2 specs at any time is a must now a days.

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 8:22AM WeirdJedi said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
There will always be abilities we spend the points for and realize later that it was never something we wanted in the first place. Other abilities seem to be beneficial at first, but later we find out are pretty useless.

Eventually in MMOs, abilities and classes get changed. Some abilities will get nerfed while others buffed. There should also be some flexibility depending on the circumstances in battle and class-makeup. Some companies have adapted abilities to be better in PvE, while others seem to fair better in PvP. Some games seem to punish a healer with lack of damage while leveling when their abilities are desperately needed in group content.

I don't consider switching between trees as "easymode" or even as character development. I see it more of a learning process. Do not let people switch on the fly. Give some form of restriction, but let people choose between alternate play styles of the class they chose.

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 8:32AM Ehra said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Even Diablo 2 has a way to respec characters now. Most excuses I've seen for not providing respecs really just amount to fake depth and grind.

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 8:32AM CelesLionheart said

  • 3 hearts
  • Report
For shame Massively... I can't believe that you are lumping together advanced classes in SWTOR with respecing talent trees a'la WOW.

So, you are saying that if you play a Shadow Jedi you should be able to switch between a tank, healer, and stealther (rouge) when ever you want to?

The first choice isn't your real class, it is just you pick this and then you pick your real class later. It is no different han the way that Dark Age of Camelot worked many years ago. I would never expect my Shadowblade to be able to be respeced into a Hunter because I felt like playing something different that day.

The other reason this isn't just a "simple" respec, a'la WOW, is that in some cases not only are the stats different that you need between AC's the type of armor you can use is different. Take a Sith Warrior as an example, one AC uses medium armor, the other uses Heavy armor.

I hope they never cave into this new mind set in gamers...

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 3:13PM DarkWalker said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@CelesLionheart
If Bioware doesn't cave, I will save $60 (plus the subscription).

While I like Bioware and it's games, I'm not getting into TOR unless I can both tank and heal on a single character. I would rather read the story on the wikis that are sure to appear, and watch the highlights on Youtube, than play a character I'm not happy with due to feeling too constricted.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 8:33AM Dumac said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I understand for gameplay reasons you want characters do develop a certain way so you can create roles and better balance content around that, but that is like the opposite of choice. Picking to spec into frost because i have to choose out of three options is not a lifestyle choice and shouldn't be treated as such. Being freely able to experiment with combinations and builds is a proper choice though, because at the end of it, you don't stick to a result because you're out of respec points, but because you want to.

Free respecs, please.

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 3:10PM DarkWalker said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Dumac

+1.

It's the main reason both GW2 and TSW picked my interest, actually. It's also the main reason I actually purchased GW, with the three campaigns and the expansion.

After all, the moment I decide that I want to change something in my character, and can't do so, I usually drop the game altogether. I'm a bit radical regarding this, and most often don't last even a week in a game that either limits or disallows respecs.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 8:43AM Gaugamela said

  • 2.5 hearts
  • Report
Brianna it's interesting that you speak about this topic without even mentioning Rift.
If that game has shown anything it's that prohibiting respecs (or making them extremely difficult) severely limits the flexibility of a player.

After trying the Soul System I'll never play a game that doesn't grant me the same amount of flexibility (with skill based systems being even more flexible).
It's liberating to be able to fulfill several roles in a game without having to reroll a character.

That's a big turn-off about SW:TOR for me even though I am pretty sure that it will be a fantastic game, with the quality level that Bioware usually gives to their games.

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 9:27AM Malagarr said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Gaugamela

It goes to show that different things appeal to different players.

I enjoyed Rifts at first, but in the end, it was the lack of commitment to a spec that killed the game for me. My rogue could do it all. He could tank, heal, support, melee dps, ranged dps and PvP. That was entirely too much flexibility. It created a disconnect with my character. He had no direction. He was just the means by which I interacted with the game...which put even more pressure on the game to get it right.

In most MMOs, I form a connection with my character. Some moreso than others (TOR is great for that, btw). I have my warrior in EQ. He was defined by his ability to tank and tank well, to the point where I seldom had trouble finding a group, since people knew me to be a good tank. But in Rifts I was just Rogue_11017, Every other rogue was exactly the same as me and could fill all of the roles I could fill.

For me, Rifts should have capped us at 2 specs. Three at the most.

But TOR's decision to not permit me to switch classes on a whim has really endeared it to me.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 9:41AM Gaugamela said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Malagarr

I think we are the perfect example of one of the factors that will separate the most the players from Rift from the players of SW:TOR even though they are both theme parks.

I never had a problem of forming a connection with my character in Rift since I had a prefered spec: a Necro/Warlock which I loved to play. I would change to a healer spec for dungeon runs if required though.

I can also see the SW:TOR system working since it's similar to the Bioware system, which also works great offline.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 2:10PM Malagarr said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Gaugamela

I can see where you're coming from. I actually started out with a vision for my rogue as well. But my guild really encouraged its members to spec for multiple roles. Was it mandatory? No...but if the raid needed another tank and only had one slot left open, well, you kinda had to have a tank spec to go along. For me, that's the biggest problem with having too many specs available. It inadvertantly pushes people into specs they may not want to play, simply because everyone else playing knows that you could spec that way when grouping with them and still keep your other spec(s) for your personal use.

Of course, this is a good thing to some degree. Which is why I'm a big fan of dual speccing. But too specs yields to less freedom, imho, not more. Oh, sure, I could use my Bladedancer/Assassin spec to solo to my heart's content, but in a group or raid I was usually stuck either tanking, bard support/healing or ranged dps'ing. Very seldom was I ever allowed to play as my preferred spec.

I don't want to see something similar happen in TOR. Again, dual speccing is fine, but there's really no need to permit AC respecs...especially with how different the ACs play.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 4:02PM DarkWalker said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Malagarr

On Rift, you had the choice to either play the needed role, or to not raid.

On TOR, there wouldn't be a choice. In the same situation, you would be out of the raid group, no matter what.

Besides, a game with role flexibility means a lot more chances for groups to form. In Rift, as long as two players out of 5 were OK with changing roles, about any 5 players you picked would be a working dungeon group. In TOR, if you don't have exactly one tank, one healer, and two DPS, you can forget about running any mid-game or later flashpoint.

Also - though this is just my personal opinion - I find a character that can only properly do just one or two roles too narrow for me to actually enjoy it. When the game is restricting what my character can be, I can't really be happy with my character. And if I'm not happy with my character, I would rather not be playing.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 5:08PM Malagarr said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@DarkWalker

First off, we already know respecs are in TOR. Second, dual speccing more than covers this, and we've been told that dual speccing will be implemented in the near future.

All AC swapping would do would be to permit you to play every role in game with a single character. That would defeat the entire purpose of the Legacy system and the nature of TOR in general. And finding a group in Rifts wasn't any easier than any other MMO.
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 8:53AM happyfish said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
In real life if I make mistakes I can't undo them. The moment my video games start looking like work is the moment I stop playing them. Mmos are too dynamic (and often unbalanced) to permanently lock a character in a set path.

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 12:40PM dudemanjac said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@happyfish That's a lousy analagy that gets thrown around way too much. Can you name a significant mmo that does not give an automatic respec when major changes are made?
Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 2:02PM happyfish said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@dudemanjac I was commenting on the general question "should MMOs offer respecs." To my knowledge I can't think of any games that dont offer respecs in some form, and I think that's a good. I dont think games should be punitive when it involves player choices.

I think consideration of "real life "is important because some people are deeply invested in MMOs and some people are only marginally invested. 5 years ago I would have been the former arguing that I like death penalties and the more hardcore the better, now MMOs dont take up as much of my time, and I seek out games that are fun and rewarding for that playstyle.

Reply

Posted: Dec 12th 2011 3:14PM dudemanjac said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@happyfish I see. My apologies then. I too am past the days of two day marathons and staying up til sun up to party with my guild.
Reply

Featured Stories

Engadget

Engadget

Joystiq

Joystiq

WoW Insider

WoW

TUAW

TUAW