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Reader Comments (143)

Posted: Dec 5th 2011 7:13AM (Unverified) said

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People need to stop demanding that they be able to get everything that an MMORPG offers just because they pay a sub and log in. They need to realize that they CHOSE to play a game, and that for some things they actually have to play and win parts of said game in order to get their precious little pixels.

There can be harder parts of MMOs if people stop with this sense of entitlement that they should be able to get everything that someone else can get without having to play the same parts of the game.

Sadly, this will never happen, people overall, people are just dumb.

Posted: Dec 5th 2011 11:58AM ElfLove said

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MMOs shouldn't be fun! No!

MMOs are a job that you pay to work at.

It's not a game, it's serious business.

Kinda like buying Skyrim, and being told that you'll never see a dragon, that's only for the 'top' 2%.

Yea.

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Posted: Dec 5th 2011 1:27PM DancingCow said

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@ElfLove

Well said.

Personally I'd just like to see more engaging combat, cos the usual cooldown driven rotation business lulls me to sleep.
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Posted: Dec 5th 2011 4:12PM SnarlingWolf said

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That is pretty much it. Certain players always complain when something is "too hard" for them to solo or beat with their friends on the first try. So then the developers make sure everything they put in is easy to beat.

Making something a challenge to win does not equal making an MMO work. It makes it exciting and gives you a sense of accomplishment when you failed the first couple of times but now beat it.

Any game that shoots for LCD (WoW, Rift, Aion, SWtOR etc) will never have truly challenging things because it makes the casual crowd, who want to log in for 1 hr a week but yet have everything, cry too much.
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Posted: Dec 6th 2011 3:36AM ShivanSwordsman said

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@SnarlingWolf

The problem with this is rewards, however. You folks also want higher level gear that's better than anyone's who doesn't do the hardest content. To be competent and be able to match you, PvE or PvP, they HAVE to do the content. It wouldn't matter if you could do either slice of content and get the exact same rewards.

Let's take SD Gundam Online for example. They have quests that give you better Gundams. This is great. Until you try to play Normal Mode with anything except the Psycho Gundam. Or without knowing what glitches to take advantage of. All on normal mode. Then there are those plans you only get for doing Hard... reeeally looking forward to that *Sarcasm*

I only play the Normal maps to get the more powerful Gundams. It's not fun to have my arse constantly handed to me, and when I finally do the content and win? I never go back to that map. EVER. I go back to leveling my units, making money, and having fun. I do like things to be a little challenging, but try doing the Normal Missions. Preferably the Moon. You'll get gangreaped by 5 - 6 Gelgoogs that tear you to pieces before you can blink. On normal difficulty. In an A-Rank suit. Not fun.
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Posted: Dec 6th 2011 4:35AM Posokhov said

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@ElfLove There can be difficulty without tedium, though. That's why MMOs are stagnating right now. Nobody has broken through the idea that MMORPGs are only hard when they require time. Look at Aion. It was called a super difficult MMO. It comes out in the west and the "raid content" was cleared in the first week. Nothing was mechanically difficult about Aion. The hardest part about Aion was sticking around for 2 hours to killt he Divine Fortress boss. Imagine that in the context of any other game. In order to complete Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3's final level, you have to spend 2 hours fighting one boss. Some people would probably enjoy that. Most people would throw the game out the window the moment they found that out. Imagine a Final Fantasy game that has a 2 hour fight as the last boss. Imagine a Mario game that has a 2 hour long stage. Imagine a Zelda game that required you to drag a block 2 hours to complete a puzzle. You see what I'm getting at. In any other context, this idea that MMOs have of "time = difficulty" is an egregious approach to game design.
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Posted: Dec 9th 2011 3:23PM irontroll said

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@DancingCow

you have a suggestion for an alternative to the cooldown driven combat? The only 2 other options I am aware of -

1. Resource driven combat - it is essentially a cooldown driven system where it relies on resources rather than timing. So its basically the same thing repackaged.
2. Directional driven combat - where certain buttons aim your weapon at certain points of the body/machine/etc. I played a game once that used this system so you could swing manually high/medium/low - and let me tell you - the system sucked worse.

I would say that if you are going to complain about a system you don't like - at least preface that with what you think you MIGHT like. Shows that you at least thought about the topic.
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Posted: Dec 5th 2011 7:20AM scfs123 said

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Its rough.
I think hard content should be an option, but not forced.
Like if games had 2 different levelling paths, one that was far harder and required alot more work but had better rewards vs a nice easy faceroll that took a bit longer and less rewards.

The problem becomes, that people want the better rewards without doing the extra work. =(
IE - "OH NOES WOW HEROICS ARE TO HARD!NERFNERFNERF"
No fun when all content is made easy, no fun when all content is made hard=(

Posted: Dec 5th 2011 9:55AM MMOaddict said

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@scfs123

Interestlingly enough, Age of Conan has this option. You can choose to level in normal zones or you can choose the hardmode version of the zone. I never knew anyone to use it personally, although I'm sure someone did but it is probably a vast minority of players who actually took advantage of the harder mode content.
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Posted: Dec 5th 2011 12:52PM (Unverified) said

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@scfs123

The problem with Cataclysm was it was window licking easy up till heroics and then sledgehammer to the forehead, kick in the nuts hard once you entered them.

The difficulty progression curve was stupidly out of whack, it screamed to me "Holy shit, not enough content, make heroics stupidly hard to slow them down."
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Posted: Dec 5th 2011 8:01PM scfs123 said

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@MMOaddict
xD i loved Age of conan for that actually, it was great for levelling with a friend so levelling was still a challenge instead of breezing through stuff tuned for 1 player.

Mind we didn't see many other people while we did this =(
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Posted: Dec 5th 2011 8:04PM EuchridEucrow said

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@MMOaddict

I used to do the elite zones when I had Necromancer but that was mainly because there was a glitch with pets that if you were on an inaccessible or hard to get at ledge the mobs would glitch and turn on your pet and all you had to do was keep cycling in pets(necros had multiple pets out at one time) to keep the mob from resetting and boom, easy elite loots. They eventually fixed it though.
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Posted: Dec 6th 2011 3:27AM ShivanSwordsman said

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@scfs123

You forget about PvP though. Your stats and the good gear you have really do matter when you get into PvP, as well as PvE. What we want is for things to be balanced and accessible without making the 2% of gamers Gods of the server. This is actually a problem we had in Dungeon Defenders: Everything was being tweaked based on the end-game feedback, and it was making the lesser levels suffer massively.

If you want Hard Mode, play the freakin' Hard Mode. Give you a nice, shiny little title that you can show off or an achievement that has no connections to in-game points or money, and make all the loot the same for both Normal and Hard. That way people that want to be heavily challenged can be such. Those that just want to have their own fun can also do it.

If you're going to go on about "Being Rewarded" and getting better rewards for harder difficulties, you don't actually care about testing yourself or having fun, you just want to stand over the 98% laughing as your +Infinity Sword of Pwnz0rz destroys them.
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Posted: Dec 6th 2011 3:38AM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified)
There was NOTHING hard to the heroics in Cataclysm. I'm amazed at people that even say this as they have to be what is referred to as "Wrath babies". If you think a Cataclysm heroic was difficult, UBRS or Strat or Scholo in vanilla would have rendered you catatonic, and those weren't all that hard either.

This is the problem. People equate needing to pay attention and coordinate with a group as "hard". It's not. It's not hard to move out of the bad stuff.

MMO's were not meant to be Angry Birds.
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Posted: Dec 6th 2011 3:53AM ShivanSwordsman said

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I actually remember the Vanilla raids, specifically Molten Core. Yeah, those were the days. I was a Mage, so I did my job! I just stood there and... Decurse... Decurse... watch the lil bars move around... Decurse... oh shoot, I'm the bomb! Runrunrun BOOOOOOM!... Yeah. When I was with the Guild, we never got to Ragnaros. I ended up getting so bored of redoing and redoing and redoing raids with little to no reward and tons of fees in repairs, I finally dropped my account with Blizzard.

I did Scholo. It was... decently tough. I did a lot of the old raids. But I never equated hard as fun. Besides, you only had a CHANCE of getting certain gear... you could run a boss a ton of times, and not get rewarded for it at all. You were also bound by the fact there was a reset timer on raids, so you could only do them so many times a week. The only tier gear I ever got a full set of was PvP gear. That's what got me resubbing, Battlegrounds. Then they put in even better "Arena Gear" and I dropped my sub again.

Are you seeing a pattern here?
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Posted: Dec 6th 2011 10:56AM Misterlee said

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"MMO's were not meant to be Angry Birds."

No, that's the players of MMOs ;)

What really makes me laugh is after a boss has already died and people continue to idly stand around in the 'bad stuff' and then end up dead themselves.
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Posted: Dec 5th 2011 7:21AM avaloner said

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I think MMOs should try to cater to both ends of the spectrem or at least cater to one or the other easy/hard and focus on it. There should be heroic modes of instances for example were a higher level of play and knowledge of game mechanics etc should be expected. Heroic modes should be hard and not nerfed to oblivion because bad players can't clear them.

Easier content should not reward the same as harder content, though I know this causes alot of contenion between people in games like WOW and RIFT. People doing easyier content or solo content often want/demand the same rewards that high-end raiders get.

Raids/dungeons etc should have an easy mode for people who want to experiance raiding or dungeons just without the toughness of more hardcore content.

Grinding should not be equated with difficult thou. That said I dont think powerful items should be handed out to people for minamal effort either. If you only play 2 hrs a week and only have a passingly familier idea on how to play the game why expect to be decked out in BIS gear within a short amount of time?

I guess its just hard balancing the differnt ends of the spectrems and trying to make both happy. Perhaps games shoulden't. Once upon a time if someone was not good enough then that was to bad. Most did not demand the game drop to their level but tried to impove themselves.

Still overall I do lament the dumbing down of MMOs and thier game worlds. I lement the same thing in single player games to.

Posted: Dec 6th 2011 3:47AM ShivanSwordsman said

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@avaloner

I can see your point about rewarding for harder difficulties, but to get at any of the better gear, you HAVE to do that content. You can't just DO easy mode, then flick on PvP and go carve faces. Their gear will be better than yours easily, not even SKILL will help you in that case, unless your foe in a monkeh that's rolling their face over their keyboard.

I think this is where DCUO shines the brightest. In that game you get marks for some of the best gear in the game. Duos are the easiest way to get this gear, but not the fastest. The fastest way is Alerts and Raids. Thus, the harder stuff gives you the rewards quicker, but everyone still gets to the same point eventually... except for the T3 Gear (Fortress of Solitude).

HOWEVER. PvP gear has it's own stats, and while you can buy a full set for in-game money, the best gear comes from influence, and marks of conquest, both which you get from PvPing. Win or Lose, you will get them, but if you win, you get more, and get there faster. You still get rewarded for doing harder content, but the easy mode guys can get there... just not as fast. I personally like the system muchly, and has kept me coming back ever since they went F2P.
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Posted: Dec 5th 2011 7:24AM Nikopol said

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Yes, at least a bit.

And by this I mean the encounters themselves you do when you're leveling up. See, you have many abilities and combinations of those abilities available to you, but if the encounters do not push you to utilize them fully, it can get a bit boring. Sooner or later, you start standing there and going through the motions with a blank stare, or going out of your way to concoct a challenge for yourself. :)

To me the best encounters tend to be the ones where there is at least some chance of dying, but you pull through anyway. I remember beta-testing The Chronicles of Spellborn and thinking mob toughness was kind of refreshing.

Posted: Dec 5th 2011 2:38PM Beltyra said

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@Nikopol
But wont you just get used to the new challenge?

I don't think people realize that no matter what is thrown at us, we play MMOs for hours on end, meaning you raise the bar and we raise with it, making the challenge the new normal.
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