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Reader Comments (29)

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 3:54PM DarkWalker said

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One of the reasons that have always drawn me to CoH is how players of different levels could most often play together. While I never actually stayed - I can't stand one of the core aspects of the game, unfortunately - I've always envied CoH players due to the amount of grouping flexibility they have.

If the Incarnate system is throwing a wench on CoH's exceptional grouping flexibility, I'm not sure I would find it to be really positive to the game. Adding a strong end-game power grind and removing part of the grouping flexibility brings CoH closer - and, perhaps, dangerously so - to the (overpopulated) traditional, WoW-like, MMO model.

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 4:01PM JuliusSeizure said

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Sure it's an option. I haven't hit level 50 on any of my characters yet, much less 50+1, and don't think I will anytime soon. Sure, it's the only option for something new and challenging only available to level 50s, but that's not the same as it not being an option.

*wanders back to Pocket D to roleplay some more*

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 4:35PM Warsyde said

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I think it would be pretty darn hard to make a meaningful endgame system that didn't exclude those who don't participate in it. I mean, really, doesn't that just make sense? If you don't participate in the Incarnate system you're not going to be any good at the Incarnate content? The only content that imposes a penalty on non-Incarnates is Incarnate content. If you don't participate in that system, you can continue to do all the things you used to do at level 50 as if nothing had changed. You could certainly argue that they're not adding any non-Incarnate content for level 50s and that excludes non-Incarnate characters, but they weren't really adding any level 50 content to the game before the Incarnate system anyway!

I'm not a raider, and never have been, but even I found it pretty easy to get to 50+3 with my main, and had fun the whole way. If raiding to progress is the issue, Paragon Studios have stated they're working on a solo path as well. I have no idea when that's going to happen, but it will, presumably, happen.

If the issue some players has with the system is that it feels like magic and they're character is technology/science/whatever and they don't want magic in their character concept . . . well, I'm sorry, but there's no way Paragon could come up with a system that would fit everyone's personal roleplaying preference. Someone was going to lose, and if you choose not to participate based on that, that was your choice, not some exclusionary action by the developers.

Personally, my issue with the system is that it excludes players who WANT to participate -- free players. If you're not a subscriber there is no way for you to participate in Incarnate content. None. You can't even buy it in the store, you must be a VIP subscriber, which means you are constantly paying out money to participate in a system that currently doesn't have that much content and hasn't changed in months. The Incarnate system alone isn't going to be enough to keep people subscribed, so just put a one-time purchase option in like with the Alignment System and let free players participate. Or make it completely free and cap how far free players can progress.

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 4:52PM Avernus said

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I don't know. I had a lot of the same fears as you. I just haven't seen it being an issue. I've got one 51, but I still play many 50s and have leveled new toons since incarnates came out. I don't lack for finding a group at all on any of them.

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 5:38PM Sam not Spam said

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I disagree - its optional, you don't have to do it, you still have all the other options out there, and being an Incarnate doesn't provide you any advantages when exemplaring below, what was it? 45? or as a non-VIP player (they turn off).

What I've found City of Heroes to be good at is having a great core, then all these branches that deepen the game, provide more creative and play outlets, but aren't mandatory. Simply put, the Incarnate System is there for certain types of players, but not all types of players.

And I should note that a min/maxed IO build is insanely powerful. When a Blaster has Scrapper-level defenses after spending countless hours and billions of Influence, that leaves 99% of the other players in the dust. At least with the Incarnate System you'll get where you want to go after a while, rather than praying to the RNG that you get a lucky drop.

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 7:44PM Patrick Mackey said

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@Sam not Spam Blasters have scrapper-level defenses without investment in IOs, actually. The Scrappers get hit with DR like it's cool and the Blasters get tons of bonus resistance in PvP. In fact, Blasters have closer to tanker-level resists without any investment in inf or even power selections.

The main difference is that Scrappers have crits, and Blasters have mediocre DPA-normalized blasts that kind of do weak damage. With billions of inf in IOs (this isn't really that big a deal anymore since you can pick most recipes you want with merits), the investment mainly comes down to power recharge rate and higher levels of HP, which I suppose with accolades does put a Blaster close to Scrapper levels. Accolades are a much larger problem in that respect than IOs are, though.

The other, bigger problem is that the Blaster can't be slowed out of his Super Speed, giving ranged characters a huge advantage. But all of this makes Defenders, Controllers and Corruptors bigger threats than Blasters.
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Posted: Nov 30th 2011 10:38PM (Unverified) said

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@Patrick Mackey

The only way blasters can have scrapper level defenses in PvE gameplay (which is what most people are refering to when they talk about CoH) is if they spend a lot of effort IOing out their character or if they use the 'god mode' defensive power that might be in their prestige power pool once they get into the 40s.

Also I haven't really played with PvP in ages, but doesn't travel suppression still hold in PvP? If so then as soon as the blaster attacks they should be knocked out of superspeed. Honestly travel supression is what made PvP so annoying for me, there's nearly no way to force an engagement. I mean to an extent that's a good thing, but it's also really annoying.
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Posted: Nov 30th 2011 5:57PM (Unverified) said

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Huh. The internet appears to have eaten my lengthy diatribe when I tried to submit it so in case it shows up later I'll just do the TL;DR version:

I played the game for 2 years and quit shortly after the incarnate system was launched. I've ran the ITF about 6 times total in those 2 years and have no interest in grinding away at a small handful of raids for days or weeks on end to farm incarnate vouchers.

Now that it's gone F2P I revisit City from time to time because I still enjoy levelling my multitude of alts, but my old affection for the game isn't what it was. If I wanted to raid I'd be playing WoW's endgame, not Paragon's belated imitation.

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 10:17PM Utakata said

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@(Unverified)

...just as a side:

If you use the "greater than" or "less than" symbols in your post, for some strange reason this will cause your post to glitch out or post incomplete. I think there are a few other symbols that will do this....thoughI don't know what they are. And I'm not sure if this was done to discourage the use of emotes or some bizarre HTML/java coding that goes bonkers anytime a commentor uses those symbols. As a person who has lost large diatribes and pointed messages, I can attest to this unfortunate phenomenon. :(
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Posted: Dec 1st 2011 12:40AM JuliusSeizure said

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@Utakata

It's less-than only. The commenting software treats it as the beginning of html code, even though no one ever uses html, making it worse than useless.

If you can see this, it means my theory that you can close it with a greater-than and continue the post thereafter holds true. Of course, it still makes less-than useless for emoticons.
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Posted: Dec 1st 2011 4:00PM Utakata said

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@JuliusSeizure

So just with the "less than" symbols...huh. I'll make note of that for future reference.

Thanks for explaining that. :)
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Posted: Nov 30th 2011 6:03PM DancingCow said

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COH remains one of my all time favourite MMOs. It's the game I played for the longest time and even after I grew bored with it I used to resub occasionally to check out new content.

But right from the start the incarnate system was a turn off and I haven't been back to try it. The whole diminishing returns thing is a huge turn off - like fatigue in FFXIV.

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 6:36PM (Unverified) said

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@DancingCow What diminishing returns thing are you referring to? I can't think of anything like that in the incarnate system offhand, except maybe only getting the Empyrean merit reward once per day.
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Posted: Nov 30th 2011 7:46PM Patrick Mackey said

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@(Unverified) The game introduces diminishing returns on non-incarnate buffs, such as recharge reduction. It discourages large investments into a character, such as slotting many VRP sets or LOTGs or many PvP sets.

DR was one of the worst decisions Paragon made, and it's a large reason why I no longer play.
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Posted: Nov 30th 2011 10:32PM (Unverified) said

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@Patrick Mackey

Just for clarification on that for people, diminishing returns on buffs and heals is a PvP only thing. You won't run into it at all in PvE gameplay.

The diminishing returns was part of a big revamp of PvP they did ages back in an attempt to make PvP more fun. It failed miserably, but at least it's still one of the more fun PvE games out there (that I've played anyway).
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Posted: Dec 1st 2011 8:48PM (Unverified) said

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@DancingCow

I was responding more to @Patrick Mackey who was talking about diminishing rewards on buffs which is a PvP only mechanic, not diminishing rewards on task force/strike force/trial completion rewards.

If they didn't put in some form of DR on those rewards then a significant population of players would pretty much do nothing aside from the optimal choice over and over and over and over.

Also, the CoH wiki at CoH Titan is a much better resource than Wikia. It's much better maintained, has no annoying adds and it's never tried to load a virus onto my computer like Wikia tries to do on occasion.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Diminishing_Returns
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Posted: Nov 30th 2011 6:35PM (Unverified) said

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I didn't think I would like trials, and left CoH alone for about a month or so when they were first introduced, but to my surprise when I tried them they brought me back to CoH in a big way and got me playing a lot more often. It's been a few months, I've got three characters to T4 and are working on my fourth and fifth, and regularly participate in and run PUG trials and MO attempts. It's still a lot of fun for me no matter what trial I'm doing, and progression is constant. I simply cannot wait for more incarnate powers to be made available and more trials to open up.

That said, the incarnate system is entirely optional. If you don;t want to do it, don't do it, just make alts like you always did. Levels 1-45 are still there.

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 7:50PM SkyStreak said

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The chief problem I see with the Incarnate System is that there is nothing much to do outside the Incarnate System.

Sure, you laying down Judgement and Destiny during an ITF is great and all, but it would be a lot more necessary if there were story arcs and missions built around that level of power.

Basically, CoH let's you be Spiderman from 1-50, and then the Incarnate System allows you to hit Thor power levels...

....but all you get to do is hang out in Asgard, and once Loki is out of the picture there's not much to do....

Posted: Nov 30th 2011 10:26PM Utakata said

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I must admit I am a little confused to what the issue is with the Incarnate system. This may do for the fact I don't have a toon over level 36. So I can't really dissect this the way I can dissect WoW's endgame content....other than to have mentioned before, it smells of "raid or die." But really before I judge this system, I need to know what it is and what are the issues with it. So is it possible for someone here to breifly summerize this? Sorry for asking. :(

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