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Reader Comments (309)

Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 8:20AM adrenalize said

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In simple terms, no, I haven't changed my mind about playing this.

However, with the way the reviews are going, I HAVE decided to cancel the Collectors edition pre-order I currently have and bumped it down to a standard edition. Reason being that I can't justify the £130 for that, if I am not entirely sure that I will be playing it for a long time.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 8:20AM DarkWalker said

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I was already following a number of beta leaks before, so I just confirmed whether or not they were truthful (they were); end result, my opinion has not changed, I won't be getting TOR.

Main reason: I don't like to play role-restricted classes. There is no AC that can both heal and tank, and with ACs being locked before max level, there's no way for me to have a TOR character that can both tank and heal. And I'm not really willing to keep two geared end-game characters just to be able to do both roles.

Second reason: TOR will follow the traditional dungeon and raid model, with raid locks, fixed group sizes and composition, loot rolls (for difficulties above easy; easy will get loot containers), etc. This means it will most likely have loot drama, benched players, ACs/roles that will have a hard time getting into a group, etc.

There are also a lot of small details I disagree with, though all MMOs have details I disagree with.

Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 8:36AM TexRob said

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@DarkWalker This is just plain incorrect. There are classes that can heal and tank.

The only concern I have regarding the NDA lift is people who have not played it spreading bad information. You'll read posts about people talking about the game, and they haven't even played it, it floods the internet with a lot of misinformation.

To those saying it doesn't do anything revolutionary, I think you've yet to play it.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 8:51AM Lucidus said

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@TexRob Or you have people who don't like negative reviews, which are truthful, slamming the poster because their fanboi sensibilities were offended.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 8:57AM (Unverified) said

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@TexRob

Nah. I think it's more people like you that obviously are not in beta who are lying about mechanics that are in the game to make it sound better than what it is.

What class can heal AND tank at the sametime? None. Depending on what you define as a "tank". For example Sure, if I heal I can take hits but I will have to STOP eventually to attack the mob.

On top of that this game is more about being dependant on others EG other players or your companions. Your COMPANION may be able to tank or heal but you CAN'T do both effectively. The game was not designed that way.

Try playing the game for more than a weekend and stop telling others they are spreading misinformation when you obviously are.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 9:05AM Sephirah said

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@(Unverified)

C'mon fanboi, he didn't mean "at the same time" but "changing spec".
In WoW paladins, druids can tank and heal, in Rift any class except mages can tank and any class except rogue can heal and I suppose other games have classes with similar versatility.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 9:07AM (Unverified) said

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@Lucidus

Or have people who negatively post on EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE with how much they hate the game.

Because, you know, people might NOT have gotten it the first 20 times you posted it.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 9:15AM (Unverified) said

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@Sephirah

Druids can tank AND HEAL,.. literally. So can paladins....

Good job using bad examples?

And what are you responding to me for? Regardless, he was wrong about an AC having HEALING and TANKING in the same AC.

Try harder next time.


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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 9:21AM Lucidus said

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@(Unverified) Stalker much?
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 9:44AM DarkWalker said

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@TexRob
Classes, yes. But not ACs. Given that max level characters can't change AC, there is no way to have an end-game character that can flip at will between Tank and Healer. If I'm wrong about it, please point me at a way to flip at will between healer and tank roles, at max level (i.e., after changing ACs become impossible), on a single character.

And I don't really see anything revolutionary in TOR. Full voice overs is not revolutionary. Companions are almost identical to what Bioware itself was doing in it's RPGs since the times games were 2D, and they also aren't exactly new in MMOs, with games like GW and EQ having them since before EA bought Bioware. Cartoonish graphics are one of the most visible WoW characteristic since launch. Sending companions on independent missions is something I remember doing in old GBA strategy games. Crafting that don't require the player to sit tight looking at progress bars has been done in MMOs since at least EVE. And so on.

TOR might have a new and unique arrangement of already proven elements, but I really don't see anything in the game that can be said to be revolutionary. And, unfortunately, quite a few of the elements Bioware have picked are things I consider dated and arbitrarily restricting (raid locks, AC locking, having to go back to trainers to tune the spec, etc).
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 9:47AM Scratches said

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@Lucidus
"Stalker much"? Really? An argumentum ad hominem is all you can muster for a response? Okay, fine... I'll bite:
One doesn't have to "stalk" you to notice that every comment you make in swtor-related pieces is full of negativity towards the game and animosity towards anyone who disagrees with you.

If you don't like the game, why do you read the articles and comment then? What are you, the fun police?
Go troll somewhere else...
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 10:15AM Rayko said

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@Scratches

A person that feels the need to consistently inform strangers of their dislike of something that borders on hate has a problem.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 12:51PM TexRob said

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@(Unverified) I don't think he truly meant what you are saying, but it's not clear. I assume you are talking about something like shadow spec priest, or better, a warrior priest/disciple of khane from WAR. If that is the case, then I will correct my comment. Very few games will let you heal and tank simultaneously, and I will say it is a nice thing (had a 40/65 WP and loved it). Now if we are talking about being able to tank and heal yourself, with twisting DPS in, then yes, you can, at least up until the 20s, do this in SWTOR.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 1:25PM DarkWalker said

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@TexRob
What I meant was having a single character that can both tank and heal end game content (though, obviously, not both at the same time). Just like Paladins, Druids, and (after MoP launches) Monks in WoW.

(well, my issue is not exactly being able to both tank and heal. It's being able to perform any single needed role in a group. For example, I don't have any issue with not being able to play as a healer in a game that does not really feature healers, such as GW2.)

TOR won't let players do this. While half the classes do have both healing and tanking specs (Trooper, Jedi Consular, Bounty Hunter, Sith Inquisitor), their tanking and healing specs are on opposite ACs - and the current Bioware plan is for the AC to not be changeable at all after hitting max level.

If anyone wants more details:

- Bounty Hunters tank as Powertech/Shield tech and heal as Mercenary/Bodyguard.
- Sith Inquisitors tank as Assassin/Darkness and heal as Sorcerer/Corruption.
- Troopers tank as Vanguard/Shield Specialist and heal as Commando/Combat Medic.
- Jedi Consulars tank as Shadow/Kinetic Combat and heal as Sage/Seer.
- Sith Warriors can only be Tank and DPS.
- Imperial Agents can only be Healer and DPS.
- Jedi Knights can only be Tank and DPS.
- Smugglers can only be Healer and DPS.

As can be seen, there is simply no AC that can match a WoW Paladin or Druid flexibility. And given that characters at max level will be locked to just one AC, there is no way a single TOR character can be as adaptable as those WoW classes. For someone whose amount of fun with a character directly depends on it's versatility, and who chooses character classes based on how many roles they can fulfill, seems like no single TOR class/AC will be as fun to play, for me, as a WoW Paladin or Druid.
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 4:54PM (Unverified) said

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@DarkWalker
There is AC switching but it will be harder or very expensive to do.
Although ya you probably wont be able to do both roles, Im guessing you like both? or like being able to do both roles.

And if i may ask where did you hear about no loot container in higher difficulty raids?
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Posted: Nov 23rd 2011 5:46PM DarkWalker said

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@(Unverified)

The info was seen on the official TOR forums, from developer posts, but admittedly I stopped reading the TOR forums a couple months ago, when it became clear to me that the direction Bioware is taking the game is one I don't care to go. It's possible BioWare has backed away from one or both of those ideas - though even if AC switching at max level is possible, just hard, this is not really enough for me to consider playing the game.

I mean, with a character that I will use for a couple dozen hours and then throw away (as is the case on all previous Bioware games), I don't have a problem being restricted on what I can do based on earlier decisions; I can just play the game again to experience what I missed on the first play through (though I do cheat heavily on the second playthrough onwards in order to skip any piece of repeated gameplay I didn't quite enjoy). On a game where leveling alone is slated to take 200 hours, and a character could then be used for a few hundred more hours for end-game activities (and where I wouldn't ever consider cheating to skip the repeated gameplay due to it's multiplayer nature), I have a quite big problem with being restricted in the roles I can play based on my early decisions. This is why I flat out refuse to level anything in WoW besides Druids and Paladins; even though I actually like the play style of some other classes/specs, I lose interest before even getting to the end game thanks to being restricted in what roles I can play.

It's actually how I choose class in most games: what will let me experience most of the game with a single character? In single player games, I often go for a more generic, but ultimately less powerful character, just to be able to do as many in-game activities as possible.
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Posted: Nov 24th 2011 9:29AM Strangeland said

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@DarkWalker

So put more simply, there is no dual speccing. Is that the gist of it?

TOR is launching just like WOW was before dual speccing was made possible in... late 2009 was it? If there is demand for it I don't see why dual speccing won't be added to TOR, but you are right. It doesn't exist at launch.

I doubt too many people will care that much about it though since I can count on one hand using only my thumbs the number of MMO players I know who don't have at least one alt.
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Posted: Nov 24th 2011 10:25AM DarkWalker said

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@Strangeland

Dual speccing has already been announced for TOR, but it's not a matter of dual speccing or even respeccing.

Respecs in TOR (and, from the current info, the upcoming Dual Specs) can't change the character's AC. It's almost as if, in WoW, after choosing a talent tree at level 10, a character could never switch to another tree, just respec inside the same tree. ACs in TOR, admittedly, do have more flexibility than a single WoW talent tree, but don't come close to being as flexible as a WoW class.

Also, I'm not saying many people care about it. I'm saying I care about it, and thus won't be getting TOR, at least for the time being.
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Posted: Nov 24th 2011 9:12PM prfella said

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@DarkWalker

This is a bad way to compare it, and ultimately is a wrong way of looking at it. Each Class is actually two classes, each with three trees. In WoW, if you pick a druid, you only have three trees to choose from when you respec. This is EXACTLY how it is in SWTOR. The only difference? in WoW, if you pick a druid, you only have access to three trees. In Swtor, you have a choice between 2 sets of three trees. Doesn't really seem like a drawback to me. Thats the correct way to compare them.

Also on another note, in WoW only 2 classes can tank and heal if they respec, out of 10 classes. Thats not a lot to choose a classes "that does it all" and one of those classes was not even a respectable tank until way after launch.

Also if you were to choose a class that does the most, just to experience the most gameplay you can, then you are gimping yourself, as you are missing out on most of the game by not trying out the other classes and their story, since their stories are unique. And since you were going for experiencing the most, then regardless if a class would heal and tank, you would STILL need to play other classes if you wanted to experience the rest of the game.

To be honest, sounds like you are more interested in Single player games.
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Posted: Nov 24th 2011 10:12PM DarkWalker said

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@prfella
Each AC has 3 trees: one for each of it's roles, and a shared generic one that improves the character as a whole. The problem is that, from what I've seen, the shared tree does not provide a proper, complete playstyle; it just complements the other trees. It's quite different from WoW, where each of the three trees is a completely different playstyle, and might even be a different role altogether. The role fulfilled by the neutral tree in TOR is most likely fulfilled by the low tier abilities of each WoW tree; those are the generic talents that improve the character as a whole.

BTW, I agree with you on one thing: each TOR class is equivalent to two classes from most other games. This means that, when comparing with other games' classes, what should be compared is each of TOR's ACs, not each individual class. You can't, for example, compare the Jedi Consular with WoW's Paladin. Instead, you should compare either the Shadow or the Sage, not both.

This is why I see TOR classes as more limited (which, for my specific tastes, means inferior) than WoW's. Besides, in the end I'm not gong to be comparing TOR classes with WoW's; the game TOR has to beat to get me as a player will be GW2, where each class is designed to fulfill any role in the game.

BTW, it's not that I want to play solo. If I wanted to just go solo, being DPS would be enough. Instead, I want to be able to fulfill any role a group might need, so I can get into groups faster and more reliably.
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