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Reader Comments (50)

Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:19PM Borick said

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Never surrender. Never walk away. Never say die.

Sure, "I quit" posts are trivial fits of acting out, but for that very reason your advice is meaningless -- those folks are acting out, and for them it's more about the catharsis of satisfying their own sense of injustice than making a positive change. Those who haven't grown up enough to learn tolerance for such minor outbursts have a thing or two to learn, themselves.

I think that an open, garrulous dialogue is necessary to the process. I don't want any developer who is earning millions to sit comfortably in the ivory tower where their primary influences are corporate and financial.

Vote with your feet, certainly, but shout while you do it. We are all, players and developers alike, building worlds where before there was nothing. An angry voice might just be the one who tells you the right place to stick your new idea.

One scathing rant, read by a hundred people, can be more damaging than a thousand lost accounts.

Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:26PM Azules said

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@Borick Rant's aren't often scathing, they're more like watching a toddler bellow til he's red in the face cause his mum won't buy him candy.

bitchposts don't help anything at all. a post with the reasons you're leaving, however, phrased with civility, may do more to get your point across.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:27PM SnarlingWolf said

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@Borick

First off, which developers do you think make millions? Those people who design and implement the changes don't get paid huge salaries.

Second, for the vast majority of players, and developers, seeing someone use the reasoning "Do this and I'll quit" or anything similar makes your whole argument pointless.

Now if you come to a forum and say you dislike a proposed or new change and rationally and constructively defend your position, than you've got a post that both players and developers will read and take seriously.

"tolerating a minor outburst" has nothing to do with maturity. No making an outburst shows maturity. Saying I'm going to quit and stomping your feet is the opposite of maturity. It is even more pointless when people make such statements on non-official game forums.

Scathing rants do nothing if they are not backed up by logic and reason. Someone screaming and ranting a bunch of nonsense about how the company sucks, the changes suck and me and all my friends are going to quit just makes your post a joke.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:27PM Caskio said

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@Borick "One scathing rant, read by a hundred people, can be more damaging than a thousand lost accounts."

Do you really think this? This must be the reason we so many angered filled and pointless forum posts.
These kind of antagonistic posts are what the posts that get ignored the quickest.
If I was a developer and started reading a post by a player that was full of hate and demands, I would just hit the back button on my browser.
A calm well thought-out post gets much better attention than a threat/demand post. Bad posts gain the attention of trolls and flamers. And those only hurt the message you want to get across.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:45PM Borick said

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@Caskio Tell that to Tigole and Furor.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 8:40PM (Unverified) said

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@Borick
"Tell that to Tigole and Furor."

You must not have actually been there during that period. Either that or you didn't know the real deal. Tigole and Furor's rants were for entertainment value and they did them ON THEIR OWN SITES (which often got more hits than the official one). The reason they could do that was because they had GMs and developers watching their raids, witnessing the very thing they were complaining about. So they weren't ranting for the developers' benefit, they were doing it for lulz. Thott was the one who broke it down and presented numbers to support his case and many times, he did that specifically so the developers could see it (and look into it). But you didn't know that, did you? Because Thott never ranted and raved and cursed up a storm on Afterlife's site.

Bottom line: You're wrong here. This article has nothing to do with people ranting on their own sites (which is what Furor and Tigole, et al did). Once other guild leaders saw that doing so raised the profile of the guild amongst the playerbase (server or game wide), damn near every guild anywhere near current endgame started gettin' salty with their webpage updates. It was a trend that has continued, pretty much unabated, to this day.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:23PM Azules said

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You see the irony in whining about whining, right? :P

Jokes. I agree wholeheartedly, Our particular genre of gaming is so whiny and bitchy it's unbelievable. Maybe it's because the whole thing is infested with self important keyboard warriors, might also explain why pvp based games have the worst communities.

Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 7:59PM Laephis said

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@Azules

Or maybe the reason people get so upset is because it's the only genre that can have significant changes forced upon you. Imagine loading up your favorite single player game and finding all the things you loved about it were suddenly changed. You have the choice to install a patch for an offline game, but you have no such option if you wish to continue playing WoW or EVE or whatever.

No one likes having the rug pulled out from under them, and that's exactly what happens to MMORPG players. And you wonder why so many get angry and bitter?

Walking away is certainly one way to make a statement, but sometimes you want to stick around and fight for what you enjoyed. After all, you are a paying customer, why the hell should you keep your mouth shut?
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:33PM MacDexter said

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I have somewhat mixed feelings about this.
Being a developer myself (not a game developer though) firstly I make a distinction that is (too) rarely made: developers and publishers. To me it is not always clear which of the two groups of people are doing which bad to the community.

And as a dev I can say that the single most problematic thing is customers leaving in silence. I'd rather want them to ragequit than to vanish. It is a lost chance of feedback, no matter what form it is in.

I am a professional. It is my task to extract the content of a complaint, even if this complaint lacks good manners. There might be some valuable material in it.

Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:42PM Borick said

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@MacDexter Exactly.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:50PM Plastic said

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@MacDexter

This. It is even more important to articulate your reasons for leaving now that so many games have gone F2P and no longer have any sort of "exit survey".

There's simply no validity to the argument that walking away in silence, while warning others to stay away from the game, is better for anyone than going out in a flaming spectacle. How would the developer/publisher know the reason for mass exodus and a reduction of new blood if this were the case?

The only people this argument serves are those who are overly-sensitive to critiques of their favorite game, otherwise known as fan-boys, and who want to avoid seeing threads that may have a chance of triggering some sort of uncomfortable cognitive dissonance within themselves.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:51PM Beiloch said

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@MacDexter couldn't agree more. Ragequit provides much more useful information than a silent and quick 'quit'.

A silent quit just spares people who are still latching on to something they like and don't want to hear anything bad about it, people who can't handle criticism. Screw 'em.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 5:03PM Irem said

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@MacDexter
Agreed. The problem comes not from saying something, but from being unwilling to back the words up with action. All developers have to make choices on whether or not to push things through if they believe in them, even if the players don't like them, but they're human and are going to make mistakes. And sometimes they'll insist on making those mistakes until given a really compelling reason not to.

Actually quitting is often decried as an overreaction, but there's nothing preventing you from going back once changes have been made. It's not the answer to every minor problem, but player outcry is honestly the best way to gauge whether or not something the devs have done is a quitting offense. When you have a 500+ page thread on the forums that's been moving steadily for the past three days and the community managers and devs are conspicuously absent, that's a good sign that whatever people are pissed about is intended to go through no matter what the players think of it, and nothing short of revoking financial support will change it.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 5:39PM SnarlingWolf said

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@Plastic

There is a reason to walk way in silence. The reason is that most people who say "If you do this I will quit" or "I'm going to quit if you don't change this back" do not quit. The developers can see their player numbers and see that people didn't walk out the door like they said. This means they start to ignore people who say it.

Where as actually quitting after a change makes a number change and the devs can see that people did not like the change.

Essentially the problem is that the majority of the time the "I will quit" is an empty threat.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 5:50PM Plastic said

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@SnarlingWolf

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, what you seem to be arguing is that people should actually back up their threats to leave, which I certainly don't disagree with, but isn't that a bit different from "leaving in silence?"
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 5:57PM SnarlingWolf said

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@Plastic

Not really. The problem is that the damage has been done from years of empty threats. This means making an I will quit post goes completely unnoticed so there is no difference between making one and actually leaving or simply posting nothing and leaving.

Nobody pays attention to I quit posts because thousands of them have been made without follow through. The boy who cried wolf would be a good moral story to read in relation to the topic.


The truly best thing to do is to make a post that says absolutely nothing about quitting. Instead you constructively and maturely discuss what you dislike about upcoming or existing changes and why you feel they are not in the good of the game. That way people will actually read the post and you can get a conversation started. Putting "or I will quit" in at any point in the post just took it down to the don't bother with it level.

Making a constructive post and then quitting if you still disagree with the direction of the game later when those changes go in or remain in would likely be the overall best course of action if the changes are important enough to make you rather not play the game.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 6:01PM SnarlingWolf said

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@SnarlingWolf

To put it simpler. A lot of the main points of the article are not to shout and stomp your feet, not to say dumb things like "You are making the game more like WoW" "This game sucks" etc. The writers point is that posting that way means your point won't get across because people either 1) won't read what you're saying or 2) won't take it seriously. It may be in the article, I didn't notice, but I would also lump "I will quit" in with those types of phrases.

I'm saying the same thing. Post your difference of opinion in a mature and constructive manner if you want to make a point.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 6:06PM Plastic said

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@SnarlingWolf

I still don't see how "making a constructive post and then quitting if you still disagree..." equates to leaving in silence. But I agree with the proposition, regardless.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 9:42PM Ehra said

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@Plastic

"I still don't see how "making a constructive post and then quitting if you still disagree..." "

I get the feeling that most people didn't actually read the whole article and just decided to comment after the first few paragraphs.
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Posted: Nov 22nd 2011 4:41PM xilr said

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"If you dont like it, just quit" --

The final argument of the defeated debater. When MMOs make changes sometimes they are bad changes. I'll use STO as an example (source: http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=237322 ).

What if you love the game on Holodeck, but hate what its about to become? Saying : "If you dont like it, just quit" is like also saying:

The developers are infallible. What they do is always perfect, there is no room for improvement. Therefore if you dont like a change, there is something wrong with YOU.

I hear it all the time, people express valid concerns about upcoming changes, payment models, etc.... But instead of having a reasonable discussion on it (which occasionally means someone gets exposed for doing something crooked) people just rally behind the game's management assuming they are infallible. If you like 75% of a game, but the other 25% is seriously flawed, your not allowed to point out the 25% and request it be fixed, instead you are told by thugs and "fanbois" to accept the full 100% or GTFO.

Its tiresome really.


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