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Reader Comments (39)

Posted: Nov 12th 2011 2:45PM Neiloch said

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You'd be closer to right if you said 99% raid and 1% who don't. That is just a HUGE mistake on your part. I imagine you are just using 'made up' numbers but about half of EQ2 IS raiding. Especially if you go on Eq2Flames, just about everyone on there is a raider, be it casual or hardcore.

Raiding and the housing system are pretty much the only things going for EQ2 when compared to other MMO's.

Posted: Nov 12th 2011 2:51PM Neiloch said

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@Neiloch Also the DYOD, at least in its first form, won't be able to even touch raiding. You don't even use your own character when running the player made dungeons.

I doubt 'raiding' will ever go away but I am saddened how far it has fallen in MMO's. Raiding in DAOC or EQ1 were the best definitions of 'massively multiplayer'. Now raiding with 23 other people is considered a 'big raid' rather then 72.
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 2:59PM (Unverified) said

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@Neiloch If you are going to head to a forum designed for raiders, obviously the amount of people raiding is going to be high. Pointing to EQ2Flames isn't a valid show of the actual player base.
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 3:25PM Seffrid said

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@Neiloch "You'd be closer to right if you said 99% raid and 1% who don't. "

Complete nonsense. There's a considerably higher proportion of the playerbase than 1% who never even group, let alone raid.

Developers are the ones with the data logs and metrics, and they generally reckon about 10% of the players raid.
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 4:16PM (Unverified) said

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@Neiloch Spoken like a true raider. Who do you think knows what percentage of their playerbase raids vs who does not? You or the companies own data miners? Anyone on EQFlames is, by definition, *not* an "average player"; note that I did not use the term "casual." I do not believe that 1% is the actual number, is it just a "fashionable" percentage at the moment, but I believe raiders are STILL the vocal minority (as opposed to the silent majority).
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 6:46PM Celtar said

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@(Unverified)

Regardless it was a bad static to quote if the author of the article hasn't fact checked her 99%/01% figure. It discounts your remarks by those reading them when you pull numbers out of your ass.

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Posted: Nov 14th 2011 9:04AM shmegger said

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@Neiloch
I was wondering how they could put in a dyod without wrecking the item/exp balance. Is their solution really that you cannot run your own character? The only content addition of this xpac is not connected to the game at all, then.
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Posted: Nov 14th 2011 12:34PM (Unverified) said

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@Celtar

Its called hyperbole. Obviously, the author is using the current "Wall Street Occupiers" manta to contrast the 1% of "haves" (i.e., raiders) with the 99% "have nots" (i.e., non raiders). I doubt she imagined anyone would take her literally (note the "quotes" around those numbers).

In any case, there is a large, but by no means dominant, number of players who raid in EQ2, but I would guess it is less than half who raid on a regular basis (and probably far fewer). EQ2Flames is NO basis on which to form an opinion, as it attracts largely raiders, most of whom no longer even play the game.

I used to raid in EQ2 - it was a lot of fun, but too much of a time commitment. These days, I stick to questing, crafting, and decorating my over abundance of homes.
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 2:49PM (Unverified) said

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Yes, I agree on some points. With a game going f2p, there will be more updates that bring content and changes, on a regular basis. But this DOES NOT mean there wont be expansions.

Unfortunately, we are talking about EQ2, a game where 3 expansions are essentially only one expansion. once combined. Every year there is a new expansion, and truth be told, they should be called content patches, not expansions. They all add a few levels, a few new abilities and a new zone, as well as 3-4 new end game raids. Nothing epic, different or amazing about the expansions, except every few that come out there will be one thats actually exciting.
Tjhe last few years, SOE has been soooo concerned with adding more and more content, instead of making the current content and game systems BETTER. Thats the problem in a lot of mmos. All they do is add more and more and more content to do at the end of leveling,. Instead, they SHOULD be adding more content in already designed areas and making those areas better.

Posted: Nov 12th 2011 2:50PM TortoiseCan said

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IMO the "pay to hope" thing is a silly thing to say and really just lines up with this next expansion (which they are contradicting their own statement on by actually charging for it). It's like "we're giving you an expansion that doesn't really give you much new content, and we're using it as an excuse to push our f2p model on subscribers. We weren't intending this, but might as well try to pull the wool over our customers' eyes given the circumstance"

I don't know all of the details about this new transition but I think it's a step in the right direction. But as far as giving players choices - you're really not giving players any choice other than to subscribe to gold if you are going to lock all races/classes besides the few free ones. I think they should give free players all races and maybe 3 or 4 classes for free, then charge non-gold subscribers for the other dozen or so classes so you don't have 500000 human barbarians running around like you do on freeport currently. By not doing so - even if someone is willing to pay for a month or so , they aren't given the choice of rolling on the new races/classes without being bound to be paying a subscription fee to play that particular character. Or at the very least, allow a player to play their 'pay class' character after subscribing, even if they unsubscribe.


Posted: Nov 12th 2011 3:56PM Neiloch said

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Did you not read what I wrote? I acknowledged That the numbers are made up, i merely stating if using made up numbers, it would be more accurate the other way around.

Considering the sheer amount of x2 and x4 content and that EVERY 'public quest' is essentially a raid, a lot more people participate in raiding than don't. Now if your only talking about hardcore, scheduled, hardline DKP then yeah raiding will be less. But the amount of people who participate in raiding and raid content at least once a week is MUCH more than 10%. Otherwise I could say people never group because they don't do it in static groups almost every day for 3 hours straight.

Also if you could I would like to see where a developer said only 10% of EQ2 playerbase 'raids.'
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 4:30PM Seffrid said

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@Neiloch

You really are making up one thing after another.

Your view that the originally stated balance would be more accurate the other way round is completely made up, there is no substantiation of it and it is patently wrong.

Once you were called out you decided to make up a new definition of raiding.

Your statement of what the producer said in your linked thread is also made up. He did not say that "most of their Veteran players are raiders", he said that "raiders tend to be some of our most veteran of players" , which is completely different.

Like a number of other MMOs there is a significant raid content to EQ2, but only a very small percentage of players take part in it. Making up a false case to argue the opposite isn't going to change that.
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 5:47PM Neiloch said

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@Seffrid I have never changed my definition of raider. if someone takes part in raid content on any kind of weekly basis they are raiding and using raid content, thus they are a raider. From the casual lark on the weekend to hardcore 5 nights a week strict attendance requirements. and like I said before if raider is only people who hardcore raid than I'm not recognizing people who 'group' unless they do it for hours almost every night in static groups or 'tradeskillers' unless they spend 4 hours a day grinding away recipes.

I've yet to see these reputable numbers saying raiders a small minority in EQ2. I do have some concrete numbers of my own though.

In Velious there are 16 raid zones, and 1 group zone 'arguably' aimed towards raiders (due to needing raid gear to finish it). This in light of the 20 group specific zones of varying levels. The outdoor public zones have raid, group and solo content. Keeping in mind raid zones straight up allow more people at once than group zones.

I wouldn't be surprised if a 'raider:everyone else' ratio had raiders on the minority, but just because 49% and 1% and both minorities doesn't mean they equal the same amount (and no I'm not saying raiders make up 49% for those that lack reading comprehension.)

EQ2 has more raiding than any other modern MMO. To try and use players numbers from other MMO's to figure out its player base is at the very least ignorant.
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 6:03PM Seffrid said

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@Neiloch "I have never changed my definition of raider."

You introduced an entirely new definition of raids as including any form of public quest. People who take part in public quests in eg Warhammer Online and Rift are not raiding, nor are those who group or tradeskill for several hours at a time if that is what you are also now arguing.
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 3:26PM ed511df3 said

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I, for one, am glad that the segregation of the playerbase is finally going to disappear. Segregation was stupid when Extended was announced, and it continued being stupid this entire year of Extended being active. However, there is a strong contingent of EQ2 players that think F2P players are the scum of the earth. They think anyone playing on Freeport have never paid a dime, and that Freeport is a failure.

Freeport is a raving success. That contingent of diehard dismissers needs to get that through their heads right now. Despite some utterly bass ackwards options for the Extended server, it is completely thriving right now. What's more, the entire EQ2 service would probably be better off right now if the entire game has gone F2P to begin with. I certainly know that I would have joined my friends on Guk months earlier had that been the case.

When Extended was announced, I was on their forums, adding my voice to those wanting to extend the gold sub benefits (in fact, I've always wanted what currently is going to happen - the gold sub being identical to a current live sub). I talked about what I wanted to see out of a F2P EQ2, and what I'd be willing to pay for. And now that the entire service is adopting that model, I'm continuing to add my voice to make sure nobody will feel cheated if they decide to stick with a free or silver membership.

There is a LOT of doom and gloom going on, with many people on the live side not even understanding what Extended currently offers, so that they completely misunderstand what this F2P change means. Partly that's SOE's fault, partly the players fault for not wanting to look into what Extended has to offer. Maybe Massively can help clear up those misconceptions.

Posted: Nov 12th 2011 6:36PM (Unverified) said

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@ed511df3 I agree, the whole idea of segregated servers was a bad one. You have to remember though it was something that the player base themselves wanted.

Integrating the servers is going to be a great thing imo as Freeport is a very live and kicking place compared to the subscription servers. Allowing those players to merge over is going to be a great thing for the health of the game in general.

Hopefully we will see what has happened on Freeport appear on the other servers. A active game from level 1 all the way up no matter what you are interested in.
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Posted: Nov 13th 2011 12:34AM ed511df3 said

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@(Unverified) I don't fully agree that it was something the playerbase wanted. Many people I know either never wanted segregated servers, or didn't care either way.

I believe that a very vocal minority was responsible for segregation, and SOE let gold sub numbers, as well the sale of copy tokens dictate whether or not they should remove that segregation.
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 3:52PM Bhagpuss said

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@Neiloch I don't think SoE have released any actual figures on the percentage of EQ2 players who raid but Blizzard once said that only about 7% of WoW's players had ever done any raiding at all. It might be higher in EQ2 but probably not that much higher.

I've been playing since beta and I've never raided anything other than the odd open world raid mob in the lower levels. I've known a lot of people in EQ2 over the years and not one of them raided regularly. Raiders obviously mix with other raiders and see a lot of people raiding, so it's natural to assume that's the norm, but I don't think it is at all.

On the general issue of EQ2 going F2P I think it can only be to the good of the game overall, and to the players too. I only went to Freeport to try something new. I never intended to make it my main server. It turned out to be so pleasant and fun a place to hang out that I ended up staying for good. I hope the conversion has an equally positive impact on the ex-Live servers.

Posted: Nov 12th 2011 4:02PM Neiloch said

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@Bhagpuss I couldn't fine EQ2 numbers but I do have a post/quote from the current producer stating most of their Veteran players are raiders.
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=508994�

People really underestimate how much of a raiding game EQ2 is. At the very least it is more raid centric than any other MMO out right now. Only other one I would consider is maybe Rift and only because of raid level PQ's
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Posted: Nov 12th 2011 4:03PM Neiloch said

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@Neiloch Get rid of the icon on the end, not sure why it added that when I posted.
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