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Reader Comments (44)

Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 9:32PM (Unverified) said

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Nexon games are largely pay to win as their cash shop items have game breaking qualities such as stats on costumes in Dragon Nest.

Aeria has a few and so does Ntreev.

If a game gives you more of something because you paid, then you're paying to win whether its gold, exp or magic potions of uber HP pots.

Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 9:38PM Zenn said

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@(Unverified) While I agree with your view on Dragon Nest, I actually quite like how they've done Mabinogi's cash shop.

Although some of the pots are ridiculously expensive and cost more than a meal at maccas, being able to fully enjoy the game by just buying a few pets is pretty win for me.
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Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 11:24PM Ehra said

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@(Unverified)

I don't know how other Nexon games handle cash hop items, but I never had to pay a single cent for my costumes in Dungeon Fighter Online. I was always able to find someone selling what I wanted ingame. I'd say it's more "pay-to-get-rich" than "pay-to-win."
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Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 11:05PM Pingles said

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You remember those idiots in MMOs that would get powerlevelled to max level and then join a raid and start AoE'ing at the wrong time because they have NO idea what they were doing?

There's only so much advantage you can BUY. You have to learn how to play it.

I always welcome the moneypants who get crushed in their expensive toys.

Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 11:16PM Space Cobra said

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You know another version of Pay-to-Win that makes some people angry/sad?

Twinking.

Sure, we may adventure and get a nifty bow on our melee warrior and some Ranger-specific armor and think, "Why waste it or sell it when I can mail this to a new alt?" but it definitely replaces the Money/Pay aspect with time=spent, yet it still makes certain people huffy about it.

Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 11:40PM Saker said

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@Space Cobra Twinking is why I left EQ back-in-the-day, got sick of seeing the low-levels with super high-end gear.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:07AM Utakata said

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@Space Cobra

Twinking is only P2Win if there's a cash items to twink your characters with. But other than that, twinking is its own issue.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:12AM Utakata said

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@Utakata

*Edit: ...if there's cash shop items to twink your characters with. Blagh! :(
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 5:18AM Space Cobra said

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@Utakata

Yeah, was just thinking instead of money, as per your standard pay-2-win cash shop scenario, one spends time. So the currency in standard twinking would be money, not time, but the affect is almost the same. Like, if you level up a Cleric to the top and got a high-end loot drop for a Rogue and decided to start that Rogue and transfer the loot as soon as they could use it.

It's just a different way/perspective of looking at it. I remember twinking in EQ (as Saker pointed out) and people hating on that, but the end result is close-but-not-exactly-the-same.

The Cash Shop buyers spend money to "twink" out there characters and the traditional/old way way of twinking, uses time in-game. And you have people who gripe about the old version, too.But, I would think, the old way is more legit in some player's eyes because one "actually spent time in game to 'work' for it" as opposed to throwing money in a cash shop for an equivalent item.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 5:22AM Space Cobra said

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@Space Cobra

Blah, my Kingdom for a Horse-that-edits-posts:

"So, the currency in standard twinking would be time spent in-game, not money but the effect is almost the same (IMO)."
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Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 11:21PM jimr9999us said

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Nothing generates healthy debate like f2p!

Here's my take on pay to win: A LotRO sub exceeding their 500 point allowance on store exclusive stat scroll, power and morale pots, and LI consumables in order to successfully compete in a competitive raid guild.

From what I hear other games are the same way...free until endgame and then it's $30+ a month to play with folks you've gamed with quite awhile. Shameful.

Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 11:35PM Ehra said

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@jimr9999us

A MASSIVE LOL at even the idea of "competitive raiding" in LOTRO. Or the suggestion that the stat scrolls are store exclusive or that anyone even has any way of knowing whether your character has any or not. Or the idea of competitive raiding in LOTRO. Or the idea of a "competitive raiding guild" needing store bought pots to progress. Or the idea of competitive raiding in LOTRO.

You should try actually playing the game for a change, you'll find the reality is quite different from all of the ignorant doom-saying you read on forums and blogs.
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Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 11:41PM TortoiseCan said

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@jimr9999us
There's competitive raiding guilds in LOTRO - but none of them demand or require their players to pay real money in order to compete (AFAIK)

The bonuses received through the store are not barriers for doing the end game content. There's a small handful of content that's really hard and none of it requires stat boosts in order to win.

I do think LOTRO needs to tone down the store bonuses but right now they're tolerable considering you get points for subscribing.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 12:26AM SwarlesBarkley said

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@Ehra

Your joking right? How has Lotro not gone Pay to Win? Some kinships might not "make" you buy pots to be in a raid, however, if you seem to die more than others who are known to be using pots and the time comes next week for the leader to choose between you (who has made it clear that you will not be buying pots, thus you might die more than the others) and the guy who they know will have those pots, they will most likely take them, and make up any lame excuse as to why they got chosen over you.

Also, raids aside, the Moors has been absolutely ruined by store items. No examples needed, everyone knows that the store has added advantage out there. This all coming after Turbine (Sapience in fact is quoted in many signatures) saying before F2P launched that there would be no store item that offered any advantage to a player over someone who is not paying. Each update introduces a new advantage and at this point Turbine no longer cares what kind of company they are, so long as their coffers are filled. Before long the advantages will start to make or break many kinships/tribes both in raiding and everywhere else.

LFF Need 2/HelmsDeep/Need Tank with Store Pots, Store Shield Spikes, Need Mini with Store Extra Healing Pages, Store Pots, Store DPS to Healing Pages, and Store map to reach said group. Only those with store bought relics in LI's need send tell.

Where does it end?
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 12:58AM jimr9999us said

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@Ehra If there's 4 lm's in a raiding guild..or kin...the 2 best will go. Fighting Lt, the last content I did, I was burning power pots on every cd.

I played LotRO for 2 yrs 'til f2p and played another 5 months after subbing the whole way. The fact I had a supreme scholar and yet had to buy pots was an especially bitter pill.

Love the game, love the content. But for the hardest end game stuff LoTRO is certainly pay to win, considering I'm not going to benefit the team I am in unless I've maxed myself to the best I possibly can.

From here on out it's only pure sub games for me. But I love the hard end game stuff. If I had yet to explore Middle Earth it would be a different story.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:49AM Ehra said

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@SwarlesBarkley

If you're dying more than the other guy then it's because you're a worse player than him, pots or no. He deserves to be picked over you, and it has nothing to do with his willingness to spend money. And I don't give two craps about the Moors; it was pretty obvious my post was about PvE.


@jimr9999us

Same thing; if you can't cut it without buying pots or consumables from the shop then the problem is with you and/or the other members of your raid and you can HARDLY call yourself a "competitive raiding guild." LOTRO endgame PvE isn't exactly the most challenging thing out there.

It's funny when people complain about how supposedly the top players people to use store bought consumables. The top players don't need that stuff. The entire reason it exists is to help players like you two; people that apparently can't manage it on their own and could use the boost.
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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:55AM jimr9999us said

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@Ehra lol, exactly why I started by saying nothing generates healthy debate like f2p! Thanks for participating :)

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Posted: Nov 4th 2011 8:58AM SwarlesBarkley said

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@Ehra

Your argument was LOL @Competitive raiding. Just because you have not seen or experienced it, does not mean it does not hold true. You are defending something based on your limited play. The dying example was just that, an example. I have been asked to buy store pots as requirements, I have been asked to purchase LI relics. It was not requirement, but was asked and recommended. Did I find that stupid? Indeed I did and stopped raiding with that kinship and left them only to find another kin who asked the same thing. Shoot I even saw on one kins application where they asked if you were ok with buying store pots for raids. Just for them to have that question on their application proves that at one time in the last year it had become an issue with some current or former member. All I'm saying is it might not be rampant, but it does exist in Lotro.
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Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 11:44PM TortoiseCan said

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To the main point:
I have no problems with pay to win games - but I think there should be some kind of ESBR-like rating system for games. I think any game that suckers people into playing it to reveal to them 3 months later that in order to continue playing they'll need to dump 300 bucks on stats/gear/whatever

Runes of Magic left a sour taste in my mouth. I loved the game - didn't mind buying an in-game mount - 50 levels later I realize that the game is virtually unplayable without dumping lots of real cash into it.

Posted: Nov 4th 2011 1:05AM jimr9999us said

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@TortoiseCan This is an Outstanding point! If I seem bitter in my comments about LotRO it's because I bought and played a sub based game only to discover lots of extra charges 2 years after I started!

Full disclosure, not bait and switch. But this might be thing that kills f2p over the long haul. Once bitten, twice shy.
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