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Reader Comments (39)

Posted: Nov 1st 2011 6:44PM Jwheeler said

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@Mtor

This guy is a joke no lie. He sits in his chair insulting a game when he has, mostly like, never made a MMO and rarely, if not at all, gives any supporting facts about why the game sucks at its current build (which was updated 3 times in the last 2 months, 3rd one was 2 days ago) that has made many changes to class balances and improvements to the games many functions, ie: pvp, pve, cinematic stories, quests, etc. If you want people to stop downgrading your posts Mtor (highly doubt you care b/c you post just to get people angry at you), get the facts, not bias opinions.
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Posted: Nov 2nd 2011 12:59AM (Unverified) said

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@Jwheeler

Mtor is Ren54 with a different name. Just ignore it.
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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 4:04PM Elikal said

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Evil has always been an interest of mine. I read a plethora of books about, what makes a person evil, or what makes people act evil, both based on psychology and philosophy. So the idea - as probably many from a fictional point of view - fascinates me. Now the thing is, I find the Sith ideology TOTALLY and entirely absurd. Even as evil.

The Sith creed is not such a bad core idea. Follow your passion and attain liberty, branding moral as chain and confinement of the will. All human beings have an anti-social desire, a will to power, and thus that is an understandable angle to make evil plausible. However, in the real senarios, almost all Sith act entirely dumb and short sighted. It never really follow that creed, but the Sith practice this "betrayal" as hobby. And that is where it gets absurd. I just can not find it plausible or believable that a society could exist on a concept where every single individual fights only for himself, his own benefit and backstabs everyone at every opportunity. Just like the idea of the Drow from Faerun, such a society would just collaps in no time, and it would have no strength to fight against ANY halfway organized system.

The only glue such a society has, is fear. And while fear sure is a good motivator in short terms, it only works while you literally hold the gun towards that person. The moment you turn away, he stabs you. And that isn't strength, that is merely anarchy. And it goes against everything we know about how humans function. Besides the natural "will to power" humans are also herd animals. Humans never are able so much to do alone as they wish, being alone makes every human being insecure and uncomfortable. All desire a herd to which they want to belong, some stable anker of a peer-group, and no greed or evil can break that fundamental desire. So aside from the fact that such a Sith society would just fall apart and be victim of any organized society, it goes against a fundamental desire, the peer-group belonging. People need faith in others and trust in a "greater good" as much as air to breath; they literally can not function without. All sociological analysis agrees on that.

And there WOULD be a more plausible way to design a Sith empire, and our own history shows that: The Nazi's Third Reich. They were undoubtly very evil, but they did not practice backstabbing, no they had groups they targetted as evil, and used this target to glue the followers together. They created on the contraty very strong feelings of sticking together, of feeling united for a "greater good" (or greater evil rather, but from the inside it was seen as good). That is how I can see evil plausible. Peer pressure to cooperate, to leave individual desires (and with it individual reason) outside by fabricating the idea of a greater cause and also fabricating an enemy. The entire system of propaganda to unite people and strengthening their resolve. Such a society is, as proven, much stronger economically and in war, because their doubts are eliminated, their individual thinking is eliminated, all things which slow down a democratic society, where all things are always questioned and debated, and different interest groups all pull in different directions. The evil of such a Nazi soiecty is, that the individuality is eliminated and all are streamlined. That makes their strength and their evil. And that is an evil I find plausible, because it can "work". It is based on human nature, the true evil potential of humans. But this Sith idea of constant backstabbing or everyone fighting against everyone just would never work in any way, and just sounds like a very childish idea of evil. Like a 6 year old would imagine evil maybe.

So, even if I as roleplayer try to play out something within me that is "bad", the idea of live in a society of constant backstabbing just sounds absurd to me. Thats not evil, thats lunatic.

Posted: Nov 1st 2011 4:22PM (Unverified) said

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@Elikal

I was ready to counter your arguments with descriptions of medieval court intrigue, particularly involving Machievelli or the Borgias and their use of assassination, blackmail and other nefarious means to hold power. But then I read this:

"But this Sith idea of constant backstabbing or everyone fighting against everyone just would never work in any way, and just sounds like a very childish idea of evil. Like a 6 year old would imagine evil maybe."

...and realized you described Lucas to a "T", and I have no desire to defend his s#####y writing skills.
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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 4:29PM Carol Liddle said

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@Elikal Isn't that kind of why the way of the Sith always ends up loosing in the end?
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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 4:44PM Mystal said

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@Elikal

I don't find it implausible at all.

First of all, the backstabbing isn't that prevalent in all of sith society, only at the top. Those who are at the bottom are told that they have a duty to those at the top, it's only those at the top who are told that they have a right to pursue their own power. It's not much different than any medieval court, or the corporate or political world of today.

No society can hold together when the selfish/parasites are the majority, but most societies, even in the animal kingdom, have a noticeable % of selfish individuals who are supported by the majority and kept in check by a minority of judgmental types.

In Sith society, the Emperor wields ultimate power over the Sith council, who in turn wield ultimate power over every one else. That's why when the emperor goes missing or dies, all hell breaks loose...

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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 4:17PM (Unverified) said

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There's also the romance feature mentioned again. :|

Are we going to have a whole new generation of computer geeks who learn all their pickup lines from a Star Wars MMO?

"Hey babe, I wanna totally digest in your Sarlaac pit for a thousand years!"
"slap!"
"Weird, that line totally got me laid in SW:TOR. Earth chicks suck."

~Vaishevik

Posted: Nov 1st 2011 4:35PM Space Cobra said

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Good analysis, but I think some folks could live on their own, without a group, but it depends on their situation, outlook, and personality. Granted, it is rare because even some hermits can't do it, but it has been done.

I think you hit a good nail on the head (and I know we aren't talking about the article and are going sorta off-topic, but meh, this is interesting!). I think many writers don't get "evil" in a society-at-large. In DnD you had "Lawful Evil" and "Chaotic Evil" and so many fantasize about anarchy and "Chaotic Evil". When you really think about it, like you have, it is hard to make such a society work in Real Life. Even Real Life murderers pick and choose targets and don't gank wily-nily.

The thing about Nazi-German society at that time is, while it is interesting from a retrospect of the outside looking in, what about living within the society? Many Germans assumed Jewish property and just followed German law at the time without thinking too deeply about the individual, unless they knew them: It was easy to disassociate with them. After the war, the US Army showed Germans in nearby villages the "death camps" and such people denied knowing of their existence or what there real purpose is. It is a bit like burying your head in the sand.

There was a rather famous psychological study conducted at an American University I think around the 1970's (early 80's?) that involved taking a student psych class and dividing them into two groups: One group would be the guards and the other group would be the prisoners. The experiment had to be cut short (I think it was supposed to last a week or two but only lasted a weekend). Basically, those that were guards felt empowered and started bullying and lording it over their "prisoner" fellow students, even though both groups knew it was an experiment. The "lording" and "bullying" got worse and worse, even if the prisoner students reminded the guard students. I feel this is a combination of "power corrupts" and when people are presented with a "norm", even though it may be a bit amoral/evil at first, they grow to accept it.

Pretty complicated issue.

Posted: Nov 1st 2011 4:37PM Space Cobra said

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@Space Cobra

That was for @Elikal and I think the study is in many textbooks and was done in California/Berkley. but I'd have to google it.
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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 4:43PM Space Cobra said

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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 5:15PM Elikal said

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@Space Cobra Ah yes the authority studies. People in a "we" identity can be made to commit atrocities at some point. Because two parts of human nature are used: the will to fight/will to power, and the will to belong to a herd/pack. The feeling of "our cave against your cave". That is how I feel a "Chaotic evil" society is a sort of contradiction of terms. Chaotic Evil, as the Sith practice, is something individual evils do. Like the Joker from Batman. Such people do not form societies and usually do not join them.

The Darth Bane idea of the rule of two was the only logical manifestation.

Yeah I know the study you refer to. As I said, evil is a sort of hobby of mine. Err, well the study of it, of course! ^^

The point is, when I play a game, I think: could I become that person? And like most human beings, my dominating characteristic is lazyness. I think that is what dominates MOST humans. Now as such, I just find the Sith way of evil WAY too strenuous, even if that sounds kinda silly. Always need to feel hate and anger, always be on your guard... sheesh, even if I went totally egoistic, that sounds profoundly UNFUN!

I CAN imagine falling prey to a harsh and stern organisation sort of evil, given I am born in a society where that is common. But every single society of such extreme in-fighting has been broken down at some point, simply because people at some point have enough of the constant stress of being on your guard. Most people are "lazy" in the sense that they seek some order, some regularity and things to count on. They value peace and quiet in the long run over anything else, or so I see it. Thats why I think a society under constant stress and internal strife would sooner or later always collapse.
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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 11:45PM Space Cobra said

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@Elikal

"I think that is what dominates MOST humans. Now as such, I just find the Sith way of evil WAY too strenuous, even if that sounds kinda silly. Always need to feel hate and anger, always be on your guard... sheesh, even if I went totally egoistic, that sounds profoundly UNFUN!"

Very true, but here is something else to consider on that point. Some people aren't as lazy as others and some are downright paranoid.

Consider how you may've been when you were younger and consider one trope of Mafia stories. A man uses opportunities, killing and other things, to get to the top of his game or in a leadership role. especially a young, ambitious type. Now, they make it, but as they gain confidence in the role, they may get cocky or comfortable. Then, another new gun comes and kills him, because the older guy wasn't paying attention. The same could be said of some gunfighter stories. The top gunfighter is always challenged and the older one wants to eventually retire peacefully, because they want a family life. (And heck, in another example, I just read of a skinhead wanting to remove his facial tatoos because he got tired of his old life and wanted a bit of peace).

As you say, lazyness is a part of the human condition and to remain in hyper-alert all the time is hard. It can be done, even onto old age, but you lose something. I have noticed the older I get, the less "magical/special" things are around me; I get "used" to things, wheras even a younger fellow, like a 18-20 year old, may feel the world is more "action" and be more alert about anything, even if he's just imagining things. But, once you pass a certain threshold, I think maturity kicks in naturally (but maybe not for all) and some people lose their edge and get ganked by the younger folks, especially if there are no rules or customs or respect (anarchy basically).

But also take this : Such "Evil" could be just passion/drive. The business guy who wants to be CEO of a big company and takes his company to the top, maybe even crushing competition. Such crushing could be benign or directed (evil). One could even gain influence and change the rules, so laws go your way but not theirs.

I think in such groups, people realize the need for the group, as you point out (and so did Mystal) and fall in under a heirarchy of sorts. You will have driven people who may buck the group in one way or another, but generally even they want "order" of sorts, even if they feel they want anarchy. Really, I don't think many of these folks are contemplative enough to know what true anarchy would mean. Some may, especially as they get older and more settled or conservative in their ways.
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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 5:41PM (Unverified) said

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the SI storyline is poorly written, predictable and has shades of KOTOR. I played it through to finish it 2 times and picked different paths each time. Either way it is really poorly written. IMO. To each their own. I am sure some will find it great but those clearly have not played other BW games or read any decent novels.

Posted: Nov 1st 2011 5:59PM Elikal said

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@(Unverified) Hm, a pity. I wanted to try SI. But I feared Sith and Jedi would be too much mired with legions of stereotypes. *sigh*
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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 6:21PM Cavadus said

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I'm really glad that Bioware hasn't reduced every single character into a really cliche and stereotypical archetype.

Oh wait...

Posted: Nov 1st 2011 6:30PM Ilikesoup said

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@Cavadus To be fair it is Star Wars to begin with. The entire franchise is archetypes and ideas lifted from other stories, myths, and movies.
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Posted: Nov 1st 2011 7:55PM Nenene said

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Ahh yes, the '10-20 people stand around a huge mob while hitting their DPS/tanking/healing rotation macros' picture. How exciting and dynamic!

Damn it, SWTOR.

Posted: Nov 2nd 2011 2:41AM Thawedtheorc said

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Now this has peaked my interest. I may be warming up to TOR.

Posted: Nov 15th 2011 11:58AM Pwnmachine said

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Silly.. silly guy, I speak the truth. I played the BETA, several of my friends played. We all agreed, the game is no where equal to it's hype. We are not biased towards any type of game genre or game developer, but this is one of the most ridiculously over-hyped games I've seen since Aion.

For the record, I want to be wrong, I want this game to be awesome, I like Star Wars, but this as of right now is an absolute no-go. I understand BETA isn't final, but it still represents a lot of core game-play and mechanics. I'm disappointed.
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