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Reader Comments (67)

Posted: Oct 13th 2011 7:45PM Royalkin said

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"Unfortunately, players who think they're hardcore already want to bypass the hand-holding early stages of the game to get to the deeper content immediately. Schubert says that devs are still wrestling with the problem of hardcore players being unwilling to wade through the casual stages of any MMO."

I could not agree more, and this is exactly why Schubert is wrong. Until this problem is solved (and I'm not sure it can), the casual vs hardcore debate will continue. I would also refute his claim that you can build both a casual front end and a hardcore backend into a single game. Blizzard was able to do it, but they seem to be the only exception to the norm. Attempts thereafter have not led to any level of great success.

This is like trying to pack two different and distinct flavors into the same pie, wherein the groups prefer one or the other, and the result is unappetizing to a lot (and I would say the vast majority) of gamers.

My contention is that if you want to build a casual game, then build a casual game. If you want to build a hardcore game, build a hardcore game, but please stop with all the useless garbage about co-existence. These two groups of gamers what different styles and different results, they are not capable of co-existence.

Posted: Oct 13th 2011 7:55PM Royalkin said

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"Hardcore players aren't always helpful in reaching out to casuals, he said. Sometimes they grow too cliquish and elitist, pushing away the players whom developers are hoping to rope in."

This statement really grinds my gears. Nothing is said here about the immaturity of a lot of casual gamers, and in my experience this encompasses the "instant gratification" mentality that casuals tend to have. Hardcore gamers have earned their veteran status within a certain game, and they resent casuals coming in and trying to get what they achieved with less effort. I think that is where the resentment comes in with hardcore gamers' attitudes towards casuals.

Everyone should have the same opportunity to achieve, but you CANNOT guarantee results. It all depends on the amount of time and energy you are willing to invest in whatever the activity is.

Posted: Oct 13th 2011 9:54PM ElfLove said

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"Hardcore gamers have earned their veteran status within a certain game, and they resent casuals coming in and trying to get what they achieved with less effort. I think that is where the resentment comes in with hardcore gamers' attitudes towards casuals."

I'm just going to leave this well thought out reply by OceanBlue on the EQ boards as a reply...

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=180099#2719644

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Posted: Oct 13th 2011 8:28PM (Unverified) said

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If a so-called "hardcore player" doesnt want to experience the majority of the game and just wants to get to the end 10%, I say let this...

a) either let them and put them on a separate server so the majority of players dont have their games ruined by people with no real life

or

b) tell them to frack off and go play another game

Anyone else miss the mmo community as it was 10 yrs ago, when people actually PLAYED and people knew they were playing an mmoRPG???
Some are still REAL players, but more and more pieces of crap are playing our mmos and we have to find a way to remove this cancer immediately

Posted: Oct 13th 2011 9:56PM ElfLove said

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@(Unverified)

I blame WOW and the 'raider celebrity status' and 'sponsored guilds'. They made a bad problem much much worse...

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Posted: Oct 18th 2011 11:09PM (Unverified) said

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He has alot of solid points, all are pretty obvious. The solutions are not so much. I like where blizzard took the game with guilds, and made it worthwhile to invest in a guild relationship. Our guild has never been stronger, and being one of the more active guilds on the server helped us secure more people early in cata. So that in part helps with the hardcore helping the casual thing. A huge problem is that the hardcore base is fairly static while the causal base is by definition fluid. So that level 1 character you spent hours explaining the game to, decides it's too hard for them and they quit.

I think TOR will sink or swim on its own merits. Like it or leave it, WoW is on its downhill slope. Much of the good story is over, it sure seems like alot of the interesting ideas didn't come to the fore last expansion. So, now is actually a really good time for a new game to launch. I for one would really really like to invest my time in another game that is not wow. I tried a few and just could not get into the lore and really awful quests. Maybe TOR with it's known lore-base and how great KOTOR was would help me in that regard.

Posted: Nov 3rd 2011 11:46AM quikbeam said

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There is a couple of issues i have with this interview, first of all the statement of "players who think they're hardcore already want to bypass the hand-holding early stages of the game to get to the deeper content immediately." most of the people i have played with were not looking to bypass the content, they were looking to play the game. While they leveled quickly, they read every quest they found, and participated in all events. For example, lets say a game provides 60 hours of gameplay. Well some people will put forth 15 hours a day over 3 days and get all 60 hours of game play. While other people with put forth 2 hours a day and it wll take them a month to get the 60 hours of game play. I dont think its fair to simply say some people are looking to bypass the starter content to get to end game simply because they dedicate more time a day to the game than other people can or are willing to do so.

The second issue i have is with "Hardcore players aren't always helpful in reaching out to casuals, he said. Sometimes they grow too cliquish and elitist, pushing away the players whom developers are hoping to rope in."
Personally i see this as basically assigning blame for the "hardcore Vs. casual" debate only to one side, which is simply absurd. I will not say that all hard core gamers are friendly, because some are not. Just like some casuals are not friendly. However there is an issue that there are a lot less hard core gamers in a server than casuals. Which means there will always be a lot more people expecting help from "hard core" gamers than the number of hard core gamers willing to help. If the population of hard core gamers is 10% per server, that means if every hard core gamer is willing to help, they still have to help 9% of the server population each.
While its true that some hard core gamers are not helpful, its also true that many others are. It also depends on how you define being helpful. If by helpful it means they are giving advice as to how to play the game, i have never met a single person that will refuse to give advice in any game, if you ask them. Now if they expect hard cored guilds to take in casuals to run difficult ops, then that just doesnt make sense. Why would a guild choose to integrate a casual, who by definition cant or is not willing to invest the same amount of time as everyone else into an op? its time wasted teaching an encounter to a person that might or might not show up for the next try.
There is also the issue of instant gratification, which other people have gone into, and the issue of why should only hard core gamers get the best gear, which i will not go into becuase it is rather pointless.

Personally, i think the interview only looks at things from one side of the fence in order to attract more people by making it seem like they are appealing to both sides. Bottom line is hard core gamers dont really need to be sold on the game as much as casuals need to be sold on games. The downside to trying to appeal to both is that while casuals are more likely to return to a game, most hard core gamers, once they are done with the game, they are done and will not return.

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