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Reader Comments (18)

Posted: Sep 29th 2011 4:04PM (Unverified) said

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Why dont you ever do posts about the REAL issues we CO players actually have instead of this nonsense lotta problems with silver to gold, gold to silver FTP AT toon conversions Cryptics taking the piss outta silvers and those who dont wanna sub anymore. Holding toons to ransom.

Posted: Sep 29th 2011 4:23PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified)

Uh, maybe if things like the subject of this column were fixed and making people happy, then there'd be less people dropping gold sub to silver and we wouldn't have this character ransoming that you seem to think the majority of CO players feel is a huge problem?
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Posted: Sep 29th 2011 4:27PM Samael said

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@(Unverified)

Wait Cryptic are just after the money and could not care less about its players? You are joking right? Massively say anything negative about Cryptic's business model. Wishful thinking.

I was hoping the recent takeover would have helped. But from the looks of things same old same old.
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Posted: Sep 29th 2011 4:34PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified)
/e Flame On

Do Silver players really matter? Sit down and spend some C-Points.

/e Flame Off
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Posted: Sep 29th 2011 8:03PM Patrick Mackey said

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@(Unverified)

I'm going to break down my general criteria to write something on BtM.

First, if people want to hear about it, I often talk about it. You can always email me at patrick@massively.com if you'd like to see more on one subject or the other.

Second, it needs to have some room for discussion. If something is bugged or broken, I'm not going to talk about it if the fix is obvious. The gold to silver issues aren't really something I'm going to go into because that's a billing thing and is really not something big I can talk about and make interesting. If you'd like me to talk about pros and cons of giving Silver members freeform selection, I have written a few general statements of my opinion but I'd be glad to detail what I think, why I think it, and what other people I talk to think as well. Again, email is a great thing to use if you want to hear more of subject x or y. Comments work too.

Third, I have to have experienced something about it. I won't ever write an article on Champions PNP rules because I've never played them, for instance (and don't intend to). If I haven't spent a lot of time in Andrithal (and I haven't) I probably won't write a guide on it. If there's a lot of demand for stuff ingame I will definitely go out of my way to learn about it so I can write about it, though.

Lastly, things that annoy me tend to get center stage if readers don't tell me what they want. I try to mix it up but I'm a critical person and things like laser rifles and grenades that have a lot of concussive force annoy me, haha. Also, things like bad passives (medical nanites, AoAC) irritate me and I rant about them either on here or on the livestream.
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Posted: Sep 29th 2011 9:34PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified) I'm a gold player and im horrified how Cryptic treats the silvers and the silvers are the ones that saved the game
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Posted: Sep 29th 2011 4:38PM (Unverified) said

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Instead of changing how Elite works why not continue to add to the slider. It seems reasonable that Damage output is really the major problem so why not add a Hardcore mode or whatever they want to call it with something like +100% damage. If that's not enough then take on another at +200 and continue to scale up.

As for rewards maybe these higher difficulties could issue UNITY merits even before 40 or some other resource to cut down on Grind Time but avoid continually boosting the quality of drops.

Posted: Sep 29th 2011 4:51PM gandales said

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The main issue is what kind of build and skill level you want to adjust elite to. Imho, many people in favor of raising the level of the elite tier assume that they will be included in that tier. There are always the best build and the most skillful person, so what would be the cut off level, the high 10%, 5%, 2%?

CoH adjusted its content to SOs even invention system provides enhacements that are vastly better by themselves. The difficulty is mainly for xp and currency gain.

I think it is not about making the enemies tougher but rather making them smarter and more team demanding.

Posted: Sep 29th 2011 8:13PM Patrick Mackey said

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@gandales

I think the cutoff should be around the top 30% of players should be able to team and play on Elite. I think the top 5-10% should be able to solo it. That's my pipe dream, anyway.

If we're talking about builds, those numbers should be smaller, like 0.001% or something like that. There are a lot of ways to make an absolutely garbage character. There are probably tens of millions, if not more, of possible character builds. Just off the bat, there are a hugenormous percentage of those (around 80-90%) that do not have a passive. Even if we throw all possible trash builds out, I'd say that less than 10% of those are really "team carriers." Archetypes fall under that, but I think that Elite should be playable by a good team of 3-5 Archetype heroes, maybe with 1 FF. I say "good team" specifically because I think the error tolerance for a team like that should be very, very low. I think that Elite should only be easy with "superteams," where you have a dodge tank, an AoRP healer, and 3 AoPM fire ranged dps or something.
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Posted: Sep 29th 2011 5:32PM ElfLove said

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I'm sorry but the last thing that CO needs is....well...

Elitists (aka 'High-end, top tier players *cough*)

Plain and simple. The community is one of the kindest in the entire MMO universe. The last thing we need is build rage, gear rage, raider culture and exclusion.

No thanks.

Posted: Sep 29th 2011 5:54PM Figure said

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@Pat. Good Post dude. This thing has needed some attention for a long time.

@ElfLove

CO on Elite isn't really all that harder.. it's just more time consuming. It's not a challenge, just a time sink. I don't think that a whole 'elitism' vs 'casual' thing is even the point of this post. It's just a simple understanding of what's fun about difficult content and what's not fun. CO's Elite difficulty isn't about fun. It's currently about time consumption. Resistance has a few challenges that change the game on elite, but they are few and far between with the pervasive 'Elite Buff' that the mobs have that make the content arbitrarily longer to complete.

The implementation of the current Elite is not so much 'More Difficult than Very Hard', it's more 'Takes longer than Very Hard'. Check out the difference between 'real' difficulty and 'fake' difficulty. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty to get an understanding of what I'm talking about. This isn't 'elitism'. This is just arbitrary math getting in the way of fun. Elite needs to be interesting and a challenge. Currently it's just 'multiply all values by 1.3 and call it a day.'

Calling it elitism does a real disservice to the crux of the argument of Patrick's post and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Posted: Sep 29th 2011 6:12PM ElfLove said

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@Figure

Oh really? Then why is 'casual' still a dirty word in that article?

The use of high-end, as a way to describe players that play on Elite is a dead give away.

No I wont be ashamed because I know exactly where this article came from.... this forum post...

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=138144

CO does not need 'Elite' players....it's not made for the Elite....it's made for people who want to relax, socialize, and have fun.

I'm sorry this sounds so angry...but I hate this underlying thread of making 'normal' difficulty for the silly little casuals who are to 'stupid' to play on hard...

I'm sorry but that's just how it sounds to me....

CO does not need that kind of attitude seeping into it's cracks.







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Posted: Sep 29th 2011 6:29PM ElfLove said

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@ElfLove

Just to clarify something as well.

Patrick this isn't a personal attack on you at all (or at least I hope it does not come off that way).

This is just a bit of a sore spot for me...as a long time CO player....I'm sorry for my anger.





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Posted: Sep 29th 2011 8:22PM Patrick Mackey said

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@ElfLove

I understand your frustration. The title of the article is specifically because I don't think that Elite should be for everyone. However, right now anyone can pick the worst free AT (probably Marksman; debatable though) and solo Elite with maybe a little difficulty. That's not cool.

You feel like these "elite" players crowd you out of your gameplay experience, but anything could be further from the truth. I specifically suggest Hard and below should be unchanged; this gives a lot of room for players to still play without the kind of expert challenge I'm suggesting. Furthermore -- and this is important -- I don't actually care whether Elite gets better rewards. I just want it to be harder, and/or maybe have its own perks (that's really optional though).

Put another way, right now you can experience the game how you want to -- casually. There's nothing wrong with that, and many people who play the game WANT that experience. I think that experience needs to be in the game.

Right now, the expert players CAN'T experience the kind of gameplay they want, though. There is nothing really hard on Elite; TT is sort of difficult if you are trying to speedrun it but is ridiculously easy if you take it slow. That's really the hardest stuff in the game right now, and it's boringly easy. That's not fair to the people who want to face tougher challenges. They don't get to have the kind of fun they enjoy.

It's very wrong to criticize casual players and say they suck or whatever, and that's not what I'm doing. I don't even attempt to do it anywhere in the article. I think that casual players deserve to play the game the way they want, but I also think expert players deserve to play the game they want too. In my opinion, thinking that elite players don't deserve to have gameplay they find fun is hypocritical.
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Posted: Sep 29th 2011 8:41PM ElfLove said

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@Patrick Mackey

Patrick I'd like to thank you for you kind reply. I count you as one of the very few Elite players, that actually understands the frustrations that many casuals have.

I respect your opinion and thank you once again for your kind reply.

This casual player, now understands where your coming from.


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Posted: Sep 30th 2011 5:37PM Dblade said

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Pat, but this has zero to do with skill, and all to do with being a gold freeform player with the right build. Trying to make an elite for top-end builds only is going to disenfranchise the silvers, because the power gap between them and a well-built, synergistic gold build is ridiculous.

To make it hard enough to be a challenge means boosting mob difficulty to levels that will murder most others, not because they have little skill, but because they are stacking dodge and avoidance with a dex SS and Defiance passive. If you want to see why that is a bad thing, look at T4 unrestricted PvP.


Posted: Sep 30th 2011 5:38PM Dblade said

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@Dblade aren't stacking, even. And look at T4 PvP to see what happens when you have power gaps between FF and AT builds: the AT's get one shot or killed fast, while the FF soak thousands of points of damage and the DD's do 7-9k hits
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Posted: Oct 9th 2011 7:16AM strawberryshakey said

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I have to say that since the apparition of the slider, I'm a bit confused. I understood a lot more the notoriety system in City Of, where I was used to play solo as "rugged" (mostly) and "invincible" with a team. But here in CO, there is something missing that makes "elite" really worth to play with a good team.

While you use SL as an exemple, I'd like to notice that TT in elite mode was, when VB just appeared, a really hard task. To the point where I played a "semi" heal to help the regular healer when situation would become pretty tight. While even now it's recommended to have multiple resurrect powers, I stopped feeling this thrill that would make me think : "SHIT !!! We're GONNA DIE !!!"

A pity really...

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