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Reader Comments (120)

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 5:23PM Vazzaroth said

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@potaco

Thats always the problem with opinion articles, they have to take their view (which is reality is probably moderate) and radicalize themselves to really make it worth writing about.

No one would read an article about "Hey, this one time I started raiding alot, then I was like 'Man, I need to stop raiding' but I did another one. Then I really buckled down and quit."

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 5:28PM Utakata said

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@Ren54

Balderdash! Nothing you have stated would be construed by any reasonable person as "constructive criticism". And you bloody well know that.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 5:37PM drunkingamebar said

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I am going to have to agree that Raiding does turn you into a dickhead, games are very unforgiving when it comes to drops. I had ran a casual guild for about 2½ years, and people just get "Needy" simply because an upgrade may not drop for months and then when it finally does, the person who is always low on dps or stands in the fire, causes wipes ect wins the roll. Also being the person who knows all the fights usually plays a tank or healer and is usually sick and tired of being sick and tired, tanks and healers over run content because they are needed in order to gear everyone else ect.. I remember rolling a 100 on MH warglaive in BT - I've never heard so many pissed off people (pug during WotLK btw) I was called many things some not so nice and other claiming I used a "Roll hack" or other cheats.

Raiding usually causes people to talk behind others backs, favoritism, arguments on what is fair and unfair, who needs what more and a slew of other horrible things.

Later on I joined a pretty teribad guild (raiding wise) had some fun, but left the game out of sheer boredom.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 5:39PM FrostPaw said

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MMO's would be better if Raiding and the Raid loot didn't exist. Raiding isn't fun, if you took the uber loot out of Raiding people simply wouldn't keep doing it which should be evidence enough exclusivity is its only attraction.

In contrast the over powered rewards they have to give you to make Raiding worth doing is also the major dividing factor in upsetting the community. Either through PvP or simple PvE effectiveness it makes all lower tier loot pointless.

At some point most of the mmo community has been affected negatively by Raiding, Raiders or the gear they strive for. Kick it like a bad habit, start showing developers a raid instance you have to repeat a random number of times is not content that will keep you occupied, expect more for your subscription.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 7:08PM drunkingamebar said

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@FrostPaw I had dreamed years back, that by this time games would be a crap load better. Insane crafting for weapons housing furniture, player driven economy ect... Instead we are homeless wanderers killing anything and everything for a item over and over.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2011 4:44AM JuliusSeizure said

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@FrostPaw

Untrue. I've had a lot of fun raiding casually, just going for the fights and letting gear happen as it may. :)

The core of the problem with raiding is that gear, because the gear is the barrier to progression. Make gear less important or find some other way to reward success in raiding and the cycle of stress evaporates.
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 6:13PM Graill440 said

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The article was what it was, a brief amount of information about someone raiding and their experience.

The point here is what forces people to raid, the devs. Under the guise of "this is a social game" (lolwut?) and you will socialize the way we want in order for you to get past content, in other words do as the devs say and raid.

I find it quite simple to stop playing a game that is not entertaining, is like work, and forces myself or friends to play as the devs want, not as i want.

There is no argument, no justification for anyone on raiding or why it continues to pollute MMO gaming, its because gamers allow it....those of us that dont like it, do not worry about it and stop giving them money, though articles like the op made are entertaining and fun to read at times.

I do not play said games and give money to the clowns that makes others....look like clowns. Plenty of other things to do until a dev comes along with the word choice stamped on their forehead. (Grin)

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 6:15PM Sinystrad said

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It’s all the little bumps to your ego that help you look past the bad. It feels good to be dressed in gear before everyone else. It never mattered to me that WoW ritually made gear available by other means and make encounters easier. I got it first, that was m ore than enough for me. I was actually glad they eventually allowed you grind heroics for nice gear. It made it easier to integrate new people and I would have new stuff soon enough. Getting tells from random people in pickup runs asking you what your spec was and how you outperformed everyone by such a large margin it feels good. Better yet, them saying they have the same gear and a similar spec and you still outperformed them.

Pride…it isn’t a virtue and pride in your fake person is even less of a virtue. Looking back, I am ashamed at the amount of my life I wasted…yes wasted, staying up too late for one more boss. For me, it makes me feel stupid. I have gone from maybe 40 hours a week devoted to gaming to 4-6. In that 30-40 hours I am including time on the guild website managing things and time spent researching new boss fight and mobs, creating custom strategies that fit our mix of gear/players. Scouring parses to improve our next run. Max raid time was probably 16 hours in guild…yes I raided outside of guild too. Me

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 6:17PM Sinystrad said

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grr chopped it and lost the rest of the post.....was really me saying the same stuff I said the first time

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 6:20PM Vazzaroth said

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@Arkanaloth

... That's the whole point of the article. He liked raiding, he liked experiencing the content, and he liked having friends to hang out with online. But at a certain point, it became his duty, not pastime, to help these friends accomplish their goals. He didn't find a few times, but eventually it wears on you, and you are so desperate for fun and any validation that you become "One of those people" that you said you never would be.

Eventually you step back and realize what's happening, hence why he said he will stay away in the future, but the entire subject is saying that it's alot easier to be drawn in to something you have grown to dislike due to obligation than you may think.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 6:29PM (Unverified) said

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I notice the empaty the writer puts on gear. To me I think this instance is more of a case of a bad dkp system than anything else.

The critique I would lay on raiding when you have a lack of trust within a guild. When people move in different directions. If you have these clique's within a guild who only talk among themselves, have internal jokes, where most of the guild is kept out. Such cliques can be good for the few, within a strong clicque (it really boosts teamspirit). At least untill someone has to leave. But, when these strong cliques figure out that they need new blood, and that the same atmosphere is gone, then the move downhill starts.

As soon as you figure out that your guild is going downhill. Worse ranking worldwide/serverwide for example, people start loosing interrest, blaming it on the game. In reality, it is mostly due to some people either being kept out of a clique, figuring they felt a lack of teamspirit. Or job/studies might interfer.

Personally, I told my guild to fuck themselves after having tanked (we were 3 main tanks) through naxxramas and tbc up to M'uru. The reason was long workhours making me come 5 minutes late to raidstart a few times too many. Officers not trusting me, thinking I didn't care (for the team), leaving me out of raid when it started to matter agani (Sunwell). Guild went downhill in ranking (bad raidleading), and eventually I figurred I'd be able to fuck the guild up the most by leaving during a fight i was 100% essential in. A fight where there were absolutely no real alternative. It felt fine, because when I noticed the lack of trust, I felt no reason to give it back either.

Lack of trust comes from people in general being bad at teamwork. The society, also outside of gaming ensures such an atmosphere to arrise.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 6:48PM (Unverified) said

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I suppose alot of people see the problem with lack of trust in mmo guilds. When they do, they try to socialize more. And for those who does socialize, it helps. Any use of Ventrilo, mIRC, MSN etc, or just chatting in game can help. But alot of people who are drawn to gaming, might not be in it for the same reason. Some people might just be in it to get away from the real world for awhile. They don't play to socialize. Perhaps they don't even have the time. They might just want to relax. Personally I think those people should stay out of raiding altogether, but to my experience they make up a large part of the playerbase even if you like it or not. And in such an atmosphere where socializing is not prioritized, empaty or trust is neglected.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2011 3:46AM smartstep said

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@(Unverified)

Well I do play to get away from rl for little while ,but at same time I am all for socializing. I don't know why you think that wanting to immerse myself mean not wanting to socialize?

What I think is wrong is that with big raid focus , all of the game is made for raiding , so all other things in game are more or less build around raiding. You run instances to get geared for raiding , only thing meaningful in crafting are consumeables for raid, people are using LFG instant teleport not to have a good time and socialize but to run instance for 73 th time to get enough medallions to barter / get geared up.

All of this make random people separated from each other and frequently rude to themselves , leaving only social interaction in guilds.
That I think is wrong.

Ofc that what WoW and many other games are , well I think games like that should exist as well since there are people who enjoy game designed like that.
I think though this design is getting old and I hope some new games will go with other design concept.

So social interaction may return to game , not only be confined inside guilds and on guild ventillo :/
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 7:13PM Emolition said

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Anything that require more then 5 ppl in the group I cant stand and most of the time 5 ppl are to much. 3 are a good number in a group but 1 is the best so the day the put in solo raids then I will start to raid maybe =P
The time it take to raid not much of a problem as I spend up to 12 hours a day playing some times more. But the wait to get ppl in to group is what kills me. And the 5 days lock outs after you finish so then you got nothing to do for 5 days more then sitting around chatting.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 7:52PM (Unverified) said

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@Utakata

+1 for using "Balderdash." Excellent vocabulary, sir.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 8:03PM Bramen said

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"But there's no reason or argument in favor of forcing players into situations that not everyone wants to be in." - Eliot Lefebvre.
This is a fallacy. The reason a hard core raider wants to force others into situations that not everyone wants to be in is for recognition of his superiority. If the hard core raider says to another player "I downed boss X and got this epic" and the other player responds "I don't raid, but I unlocked the tomato plant for my garden" the raider feels a profound sense of lack of recognition for his raiding efforts. However if raiding is the only option everyone would see the greatness in downing boss X.

You also nailed down the steps toward the raiding nightmare fairly accurately.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 8:59PM doublerainbow said

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This is exactly why I feel that the new Raid Finder model Blizzard is employing will be a good thing.

Can't make raid times with your guild? Well, as long as you just want to get into the raids and see the fights, then join an RF PUG! It was fun for me in Wrath to get into a PUG, at least I had something I didn't have to commit to. At the same time those groups could be unruly, and so a new easy format seems a bit more tuned for me (and I am okay with less powerful gear).

I would rather not commit to a raiding guild. I want to play when I feel up to it, sure that might be emotivism at its finest, but we are aloud to have opinions.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 9:15PM Vanpry said

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I think raiding was the brain child of a psychiatrist because it feeds on all the obsessive compulsive disorders many people have.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 9:38PM Paradigm68 said

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Raiding is what made me walk away from WoW. Hit max, goofed around a bit, then started raiding. I ran one raid a couple of times and realized what was involved and walked away. It was too much like a job.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 9:58PM (Unverified) said

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This is whay I do not raid. I am in a raiding Guild. I am int he Guild for the perks and they only keep me because I earn them cash for the precious guild bank. I'm exhaulted and they don't even let me deposit in the guild bank. They treat me like a red headed step child. I hate it but I think I will stick with them because I only plan on playing WOW for a couple more months. Sad really.

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