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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 6:19PM shirtntie said

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@ArcherAvatar

Well said, i enjoyed your comment and the article. Very nice topic.

I can relate on a personal level. Thank goodness my education and family life did not suffer from me being caught up with the raiding life style that WoW so easily builds around you(unintentionally or intentionally). But i did get caught up in it and many friends i made on the way to the level cap were lost. I got completely swept away and the first part of this article describes exactly how it felt, regardless of all the epics i had, the successful raiding team, how far i was in the raid dungeons...it was awful.

It is hard not to walk down this path because this fun game (WoW) guides you down it so easily. I agree that they are flaws, short comings. You really dont see the flaws in it until youre out of the lifestyle.
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:33PM Arkanaloth said

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No offense to you Eliot but I have to ask. How did you ever get so far into raiding.. so deep into it as to be "dripping with epics" and not enjoy it?

I tried raiding and hated it the first time... I thought to myself "this is horrible, it's like herding cats and for what?" I told myself that I had to be wrong, so many people enjoy it I should give it another try. After two more tries I realized something:

For me, I wasn't wrong. For me, raiding sux.

and I never tried it again... Never really been one to dig PVP either and given that WoW's endgame progression is pretty much Raid, PVP, or be bored I decided it was time to quit. I had been time-sharing between GuildWars and WoW, so WoW went away and GW became my full time game.

But seriously.. how could you have done so much, gone so far, gotten so deeply into the rabbit hole and only at the end look up and realize that it's just not for you? There *has* to be some layer of fun to it for you in there somewhere or else you would have never gotten that far.

Posted: Sep 21st 2011 4:10AM JuliusSeizure said

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@Arkanaloth

Read a little more carefully. He's quite clear that he enjoyed the actual act of raiding at first, it was all the baggage that made it terrible and sucked out the fun.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2011 8:24AM Arkanaloth said

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@JuliusSeizure I read it just fine. You don't get *THAT* far into raiding to become the Raid MT, bleed purple, and all that without doing it for a VERY long time.... far longer than "at first".
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:33PM IncognitoHat said

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The Soapbox: How Raiding Revealed that I am a Horrible Person

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:37PM Josh K said

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@IncognitoHat This
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:56PM Utakata said

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@IncognitoHat

In what way is the writer a horrible person?
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 8:06PM IncognitoHat said

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@Utakata

I use the word horrible because it's already in the title.

Blaming a video game for making you selfish is the same as blaming a video game for making you violent. A video game doesn't create characteristics in you.

So, if he thinks the video game made him "horrible", he's wrong. He already was horrible. He was just given an outlet for it.

Take some responsibility for your own actions.
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 9:35PM Utakata said

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@IncognitoHat

Oh dear...Ren54 pop psychology working in overload folks. At this time I'm not going to entertain this since this issue has already been addresses in the first thread. Only to mention the strawman here is that the writer never claimed to be abdicating responsibility for his own actions.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2011 2:22AM IncognitoHat said

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@Utakata

No, the entire article is about not taking responsibility for the action. Starting with the title, actually.

Raiding is like any other competitive action. If you turn into a jerk the moment there's some fictional MMO stress on you, it's probably not the 'raiding game' is all I'm sayin'.
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Posted: Sep 21st 2011 4:32AM JuliusSeizure said

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@IncognitoHat

Here, this is the most accurate way to phrase the title I can think of: 'How Raiding Can Cause Anyone To End Up Snapping If They Lack The Necessary Perspective To See How Various Pressures Are Affecting Them.'

Perhaps with the subtitle, 'Seriously, It's Not A Matter Of Personality Defects, It's An Accumulation Of Stress Due To Not Having Gone Through Something Similar Or Otherwise Had Opportunity To Learn To Take A Step Back And Take Stock Of Your Excessive Investment In Something.'
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Posted: Sep 21st 2011 4:50AM Utakata said

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@IncognitoHat

Baloney! The article is not about abdicating responsibility as I have already established. There's no "It's okay I can go postal because the raid made me do it...and so should you!" Yet you managed to follow it up by another by even more of an insipid stawman of "fictional MMO stress". You are either completely delusioned in your armchair psychology or one of those hardcore raid types with their head stuck elitist rear. Or both. Just saying.
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:36PM Josh K said

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I'm a WoW raider and have been for years. I have to say that your post makes you sound like less of a team player and more of a loot whore.

I've always been happy to see fellow guild mates getting gear, even when I'm competing for the same piece. Sure, I wish I had gotten it, but that's how it works.

The only thing I get frustrated about is occasional poor performance, but that's easy enough to resolve.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:50PM smartstep said

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@Josh K

You miss the point I think. You get only frustrated at occasional poor performance because you still enjoy raiding as main thing to do at end game.

Many people want mmorpg to give them something apart of running raids or other instances.
There is just nothing to do, you can raid , run heroics and arenas.

Nothing else. There are many things that could be done in addition to raiding , whole alternative kind of things , well just whole game concept would have to be diffrent :/
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Posted: Sep 21st 2011 12:09AM OutThere said

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@Josh K
You are a rare and wonderful beastie.
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:48PM Utakata said

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@Ren54

So what's your excuse Ren54? You brow beat the writer for "blaming" raiding for his behavior and not instead for controlling his outbursts. Yet day in and day out we see your outbursts here at Massively in the form of your insipid trolling. When are you going to take actions for this behavior?

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:53PM smartstep said

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One thing struck me.

Until players WILL go and play games that offer nothing but gear treadmill at the end , nothing will change.

Only players choice at what type of game they want to play can change situation.

If players choose linear questing at very fast pace and then running instances and raids to death at end game. Then game studios will develop games like that.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 5:19PM Deadalon said

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Personally - I dont know of any thing that is more fun than beeing in a good raid group with skilled ppl that are focused on having fun rather than figthing over loot.

But it takes time to build a strong raiding team that works well together. And very often these teams break up for diffrent reasons (mainly RL ones) leading to lack of progress overall.

So quite frankly - Ive desided that raiding is not worth the time. Not because it is not fun - but because it has so many negative effects that you can in no way control. Be that dc problems - or RL issues - Or lack of healers or tanks this night or that. Its simply not worth it.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 5:19PM Utakata said

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I'm not sure that committing selfless acts that distract from the enjoyemnt of the game to keep the raid togather is the only problem with raiding. (And I strongly suspect isnt the only problem with raiding in WoW.) It's also dealing with the WoW 'tardism, know-it-alls, Recount fascists, elitest prudes, repeated whipes, cookie-cutting specs, gear & stat juggling, gems, enchants, potions, buffs, debuffs, positioning, co-ordinating, class & roll make-up, Vent, add-ons, grinding, drama, loot distribution, etc...all in the name to get that one epic or two. If one where to look at outside the realm of MMO gaming, as defining something enjoyable...I think they will quickly conclude it as rather someone's definition of hell. And this is what's wrong with raiding.

Posted: Sep 21st 2011 12:11AM OutThere said

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@Utakata

LOL, exactly.
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