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Reader Comments (120)

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:33PM pcgneurotic said

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There's an article over on Cracked.com about the ups and downs of relationships, marriages etc, that echoes what you're saying here, particularly "...you get to the point of having screaming arguments and full-on rages over make-believe swords through a more subtle process than most people realize".

What it says in the article is (and I can attest to this personally), that when your relationship or marriage goes wrong, there is often no single defining moment where you can go 'Oh, this has gone bad, I need to get out.' Like on TV or in films where one partner walks in on the other partner in bed with someone else and it's like, 'That's it! We're through!'

What often happens instead is that one day realise you're no longer in love with them, they're not The One you thought they were, but you kind of just stick it out from a sense of shared history, obligation etc, and in the long term, it can get really toxic and unhappy and you waste years of your life in a crappy, loveless relationship.

In my own experience with a guild, although I wasn't a star raider by any means, I did feel a terrible burden of obligation to be online and be helpful etc etc, which kind of kept me out of the game for years after I quit because I was bored of it anyway.

Anyway, what you were saying in there kind of resonated nicely with that bit of wisdom, I thought. :D

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:39PM potaco said

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@Ren54

For once, I agree with Ren... The games are designed to reward progression through teamwork and dedication. Just because you are unable to control yourself doesn't mean that it is inherently evil. It's like blaming McDonald's for making you fat... nobody is forcing you to do it but yourself.

I know these Soapbox articles are just opinion pieces, but it seems like lots of staff members like to use them to troll the readers.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:40PM eLdritchZ said

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@Deadalon Peer Ptressure huh? You mean just like any form of competitive team activity? So, say my Paintball team, who I drilled hours and hours to shape their lazy butts into something useful so we could win some tournaments and get a good standing in the league - that was basically just me bullying them?

Raiding in WoW is highly competitive in nature. It can be just a casual fun thing if all the people involved have the same sort of speed and goals but that is a rare thing. There will most likely always be a few people who want to achieve more...

Saying that they are practically bullying people when all they are trying to do is motivating the people they like to play with to the point that they want to get better at the game, is just... I don't know... it kind of disgusts me, mate ;)

We are not talking about bullying people into buying designer clothes or buying the newest iphone here... Peer Pressure is hardly the right term.

Also, I find it funny that it is always the more hardcore crowd that get's blamed and is expected to sacrifice their fun because that would be considerate. expecting the casuals to speed up is peer pressure xD Oh hypocracy, how juicy you are

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:40PM LiquidElectron said

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Yep, I knew it was a bad sign when I felt bad for my guild and not myself when I stopped playing. That's when you know it's gotten ridiculous. And I'm curious as to this alternate-WoW endgame people speak of. Playing yet another alt to 85? Running heroics until your eyes bleed? PvP? (gag, Arenas), doing Archaeology until you give yourself a brain tumor? Doing dailies and collecting gold that you'll never use? Wait, I know, it's the sitting on your 'coolest' mount outside the AH, right?

Whew sorry about that.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:52PM potaco said

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@LiquidElectron

Just because you don't care for those activities doesn't mean that they aren't totally viable end-game alternatives for many people.
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:13PM DarkWalker said

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@potaco
Has any of those activities even a shadow of challenge?
No. they are just mind boggling but unchallenging grinds (apart from PvP).
Which, in my book, makes them unworthy of being called end-game activities at all.
WoW has no real end-game that takes groups smaller than 10 players.
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 4:39PM potaco said

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@DarkWalker

You're using the same logical fallacy as LiquidElectron... Who said that something needs to be challenging to be fun? You did. Not the entire WoW population.

PVP is a huge end-game activity for many people, just like raiding is for others. Seriously playing the Auction House is another niche that many don't consider. While WoW doesn't offer much for gathering/crafting progression, some other MMOs have entire "guilds" (or equivalent) dedicated to it.

Again, just because something isn't the way YOU like it doesn't mean that NOBODY could like it.
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Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:41PM Ceridith said

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@Ren54

You apparently missed the entire portion of the article that explains that raid design is such that many participants of a raid end up becoming integral to the success of their raid. As such, there is an expectation that they show up every time no matter if they start to get bored or need a break, because if they don't the success of the raid will suffer. When it gets to this point for many people, they tend to burn out on raiding because it's become more of a job than a hobby.

I can completely relate to this, having filled more integral raid rolls, from main tank, off-tank, leading, etc. Of course, I wouldn't expect players who have never filled a critical raid role to truly understand what it's like, because they're more able to blow off a raid night without noticeably handicapping their raid.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:45PM actellim said

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Personally, I raid with friends one or two days a week. I don't care about gear; I always pass to someone else if they NEED it. For me, at least, raiding is about the company. Getting to hang out with people whose company you enjoy is the reward, not some imaginary purple sword, and as a raider, I've seen a lot of people get caught in that trap, though I don't raid with any of them anymore.

Hell, I've been there myself. When I started raiding it was for gear, but a year later I found myself where you were, hating the game and hating myself for playing it, so I did what any rational individual does in those circumstances: I told my guild I needed a break. Two months (and a lot of barhopping) later I found myself missing the friends I'd made, so I went back. That's why I raid, purple swords be damned.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:47PM potaco said

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@Ceridith
If you're filling an integral role in a raid, you already know that you're an integral participant.... If you don't want to get sucked in, why would you knowingly volunteer for such a role instead of something less important?

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:50PM gunny007 said

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I completely understand....

Only I was 1 step further down the rabbit hole being a guild officer and forced to play a tank spec because we had no one else who could do it effectively. So not only did I HAVE to be on because I was an officer I had to play a role I didn't really want to.

I was also playing with people I played EQ with so it's online friends of 10 years or so counting on you. That burden gets awful heavy.

I still raid and like the raiding aspects of mmo's. I just refuse to ever have that much personally invested in the game. Much more laid back... it definetly helps as well since now if I raid and my significant other doesn't it doesn't cause WW3... I dun mind giving her my spot or stepping out so we can go play together and do something else....

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:53PM Rengar said

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@Ren54
For once I actually agree with what you say.

To Eliot: I understand it got bad for you, but it was your active decision to raid, and to continue raiding when it clearly was no longer fun for you. I sympathize with your situation, but blaming the game or raiding isn't very productive. You at least made the correct decision to stopping what you decided was a self destructive behavior. It was your decision to start and your decision to stop knowing full well what was presented to you in WoW Raiding.

I think people in the this world in general could take a bit more responsibility for their own actions. When I decided that the only person responsible for my crappy life was me and starting to something about it myself, things turned around for the better. That can be true for most everyone else as well.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:57PM MaddZ said

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I refused to Heal or Tank for that very reason. If you are a tank or healer its damn near impossible to miss raids because the whole damn group falls apart without you. Miss 2 raids in a row and you can pretty much guarantee your spot will be gone, or that at the least you will have to fight with someone else to get it back.

Its illogical to expect people to spend 15+ hours a week raiding online. Its not like stamp collecting, where you can step away from what you are doing to answer the door or take care of a child. Its not like basketball or softball because those seasons end. Raiding is an all consuming, pressure driven aspect of the current MMO market, and given the grind oriented nature of raiding its no great surprise that turn over is so damned high.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 1:58PM (Unverified) said

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This article is spot on. From someone who's gone through the whole cycle: solo questing, five-mans with friends, Heroic 5 man PuGs, 10 man raiding guild, 25 man raiding guild, 25 man heroic raiding guild, 25 man heroic raiding guild competing for the top spot on the server, I totally get it. You just want to get better. You want your progress to mean something, and the progression is how that happens. Good guilds just make it that much more fun.

Now though, I severed the ties. I only sub for a month every now and then to quest and do LFG 5 mans once or twice a week. It's just easier on the psyche that way. This article really spoke to me. Can't wait for GW2!

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 2:01PM toychristopher said

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I absolutely hated the sense of obligation to log on and raid, even if I didn't want to. Worse, I would get so angry when I logged on and didn't want to and then other people didn't show my same level of devotion.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 2:01PM toychristopher said

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@Hydrium Yeah, you don't sound defensive AT ALL.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 2:12PM (Unverified) said

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I would love to play a game with multiple ways to get things, where you didn't have to raid, but if you made such a game you might as well not include raids at all. Raiders do what they do to get stuff (yeah, the challenge of downing the bosses is there at first, but when the raid goes on farm status then it's all about getting the stuff). They don't raid because they love playing the game that way.

Give the casuals (OMG! CASUALS! DIE DIE DIE!) the option to get the same, or even similar stuff, and your forums will melt down in a mushroom cloud of nuclear raider venom.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 2:12PM Tom in VA said

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Having never raided, it's hard to empathize with the OP, but I really do wish games like WoW permitted dual tracking: them as wants it should be able to pursue the raider track and them as don't should have viable and fun alternatives for endgame content.

But that's not how it generally works.

Endgame content = raiding, and raiding = endgame content. MMOs start out as one thing (solo/co-op online games) and morph into something (raid-focused gear grinds) by the time you reach max level.

That is precisely the point at which I generally drop out of MMOs and move on to something new. My advice to the OP -- and really any gamer -- is the same: once a game is not fun, move on to something else. It's really not that complicated. My suggestion or game developers is to start thinking "outside the raid box" when it comes to offering endgame content.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 2:20PM real65rcncom said

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This article sounds like my time in RIFT.

I started out loving rifts and invasions, then did them because that's really all Trion put at the endgame. The little outside content they had was too easy and mostly soloable. So you end up doing experts, Greenscale and hammerknell all the time. when you've done most of it the game just becomes something you do because it's what the other people in your guild are doing.

at the end, you just get tired of hearing a new dungeon is coming and then you just repeat the same old thing because you know exactly how it's going to end up.. you with T3 gear at the end and nothing but doing dungeons over and over.

Posted: Sep 20th 2011 2:27PM real65rcncom said

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@real65rcncom meant: did "dungeons" because that's all Trion put at endgame.. not rifts.
everything outside in the open world was easy to do for the most part and offered no challenge. they need to do more with rifts maybe.. idk. but dungeons im burnt on.

*waiting for GW2 and SWTOR and Archeage for more open world content and lore questing*
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