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Reader Comments (100)

Posted: Sep 10th 2011 7:31PM Saerain said

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@Pingles

I feel the same way, and I'm 25.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 8:07PM mmogaddict said

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@Pingles
I did something similar recently and got a lifetime sub to Gods and Heroes even though I know the game probably won't last.

Felt alittle sorry for them.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 2:27PM Daemodand said

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Funny how MMOs turned the real world upside down, isn't it? The rich become poor and the poor become rich.

Posted: Sep 10th 2011 2:53PM (Unverified) said

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@Daemodand

That's actually an awesome statement. It really hits home. MMO's used to be alternate worlds where poor people and rich people all started at the same place.... but like everything else, even our relatively small community has given way to providing advantages for the rich.

Maybe that is the reason that MMO worlds have lost their magic, that I could never put my finger on.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 2:54PM Skiim said

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@Daemodand

? lol and how is that?
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 3:17PM HiroProtagonist7 said

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@Skiim

How is that? - in a sub game, everyone playing is playing the same game. Everyone has access to the same advantages and disadvantages no matter what. It doesn't matter if you're a banker or a student.

Under the "F2P" and item shop models, you again bring into play advantages for those with more disposable income.

The rich again have more access to content than the poor under the F2P models.

Logic, it does the gamer good.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 3:24PM Celtar said

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@(Unverified)

Actually it "used" to be more costly to do online gaming, so people with more disposable income were mostly the only ones doing it. And even when the hourly charges for the online rpgs, fps etc came down for many years it still was those who had more income who had better gear, characters etc.

It is only in the past ten years that this flip has really happened, mostly because online gaming is dirt cheap to do anymore. Which is why I never understand the bitching that goes on with a simple 15.00 bucks a month for a subscription. Or the occasional cost of an expansion for that matter. :)

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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 3:59PM Pingles said

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@HiroProtagonist7

You've got to be kidding me. You rich sub-game people have $100+ dollars a year to play a game and someone without the cash can't even play!

Look at what this survey said: older gamers are accelerating their XP. It's because they dont have six to eight hours a day to grind like younger players! It doesn't say they're buying Swords with +20 in Unfair Advantage!

And you think this makes developers increase grind? What do you think sub game developers want? They want a longer subscription from you!

No developer wants you to quit in frustration. They are never gonna take cash short term and push people away.

The developers are both doing the same thing. Just different methods.

Why do you guys have to clutter up every discussion with your anti-F2P misinformation? Stick to the games you like!
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 4:51PM Furdinand said

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@HiroProtagonist7 Since the beginning, sub games have had options for players with real world cash to buy in game advantages, they were just conducted via black market.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 5:04PM blackcat7k said

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@Pingles

We "clutter" up these discussions with F2P arguments because an MMO is no longer a game when your wallet is a factor that advances you though the game.

You don't want to spend the time grinding? So you pay to to advance faster. Why are you playing the game then?

Why does the developer have this grind in first place? Are they just wasting the players time? They're the ones setting the stand for what the player goes through to advance. But they say: "No this really isn't the standard, just pay us and you'll breeze through this."

This isn't about saving your time. If the developer/company wanted to save your time. They would get rid of the grind. Period. You're under the developer's sway when you pay them to get rid of grind or give you a specific outcome for cash.

If your time is precious then you probably shouldn't be playing a game with such an huge time commitment. If you voted with your wallet that you're not going to pay for games with unreasonable time commitments, they would go away overnight.

If anyone used their position, money, or status to push themselves to a desirable outcome in a real life game we would immediately call foul. Yet somehow when it comes to MMOs it all of sudden becomes alright? These games still involve real people even if the arena is virtual.

To continue to support F2P is to support developers/companies selling/renting a game's advantages piecemeal instead of them being something that should be earned through gameplay. There is no check or balance to make these pay to win systems fair. The consumer has to take the developer/company's word for it that won't sabotage the environment that you've invested your time in. That right there is a rotten deal for everyone involved.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 6:09PM (Unverified) said

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@Celtar

whether it's $15 or $30 dollars to play a game monthly, everyone is still on the same level once they 'buy in'.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 6:29PM Pingles said

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@blackcat7k wrote "We "clutter" up these discussions with F2P arguments because an MMO is no longer a game when your wallet is a factor that advances you though the game.

You don't want to spend the time grinding? So you pay to to advance faster. Why are you playing the game then? "

I think perhaps in my nerd rage I made my point ambiguous. My point is that EVERY game has grind. I quit WoW because of rep grind.

P2P, F2P, they are all trying to keep you playing as long as they can.

The stats/surveys have showed over and over that the majority of F2P players NEVER SPEND A DIME. That can't be said for ANY sub game.

F2P games are not filled with idiots who don't realize they spent $300 last month. It's filled with a bunch of folks who pay nothing and a few people buying bags, clothes and some health pots.

Check a few F2P forums. There are plenty of high ranking players who never use the cash shop. And a bazillions others just plain having fun for free.

I know. I play F2Ps.

I can tell that the majority of the folks spewing hate against F2Ps have never played them. How do I know? Because the points they are trying to make are not real. No game is like that!

Even Allods, a game I quit because of their cash shop policies, is nothing like what these folks are saying. And STILL most Allods players never spend a dime.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 7:32PM Saerain said

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@HiroProtagonist7 I don't see how that supports Daemodand's ”The rich become poor and the poor become rich.”

You seem to be saying exactly the opposite.
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 9:52PM Celtar said

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>>Posted: Sep 10th 2011 6:09PM
>>(Unverified) said
>>
>>@Celtar
>>
>>whether it's $15 or $30 dollars to play a game monthly, everyone is still on >>the same level once they 'buy in'.

You didn't read the rest of my statement obviously. It "used" to be that only working professionals or the wealthy could afford to play these games. When the costs were hourly.

Now its a flat rate to play which makes it an incredibly cheap hobby. I don't miss $500.00 to $1,000.00 dollar monthly online gaming bills from fifteen to twenty years ago. Though I could afford them.

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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 11:11PM (Unverified) said

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@Pingles : have you played Atlantica? If so, do you deny that every time they bring out a new mount or costume gambling box, a significant number of players will buy those boxes until they get one with the desired item? Often easily costing them hundreds of dollars?
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Posted: Sep 11th 2011 2:53AM StClair said

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Most people playing MMOs for their own enjoyment are, by the standards of the rest of the world, fantastically rich. They can afford a $1000+ computer, or net cafe fees to access same; the box cost of the game, another $40 to $60 per game; and somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 per year for each subscription, or a variable amount for "free" games (sometimes much less, sometimes much more). They also have to pay for internet access, unless they're hitting net cafes.

Even leaving off the computer as a semi-annual rather than annual expense, that's more money in $US than... oh, half the people on this planet will ever make or dream of making in a year. And we spend it casually, on entertainment. To amuse ourselves.

(Note that I did say "for their own enjoyment", as I don't count the vast plantations of gold-farming serfs whose work stations are property of their employers/masters.)
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Posted: Sep 11th 2011 10:29AM Pingles said

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@(Unverified) wrote "have you played Atlantica? If so, do you deny that every time they bring out a new mount or costume gambling box, a significant number of players will buy those boxes until they get one with the desired item? Often easily costing them hundreds of dollars?".

--

You have hit upon the beauty of F2P. There are always a few knuckleheads with more money than sense who fund the game for the vast majority. If that player wants to spend $100 to be riding on a flaming super-crab then so be it. I'll stick to my free horse.

You've also nailed exactly what they're buying. Not giant weapons you have no defense against. But flashy, show off items that I am happy to see someone buy but I have no interest in.
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Posted: Sep 11th 2011 9:24PM scrubmonkey said

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@HiroProtagonist7

Heh... I interpreted what he was saying as gamers with more free time tend to have less money IRL, but can use that time to farm out a fat wallet in-game.

Guess there's more than one way to look at it...
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Posted: Sep 11th 2011 9:38PM scrubmonkey said

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@Celtar

"It is only in the past ten years that this flip has really happened, mostly because online gaming is dirt cheap to do anymore. Which is why I never understand the bitching that goes on with a simple 15.00 bucks a month for a subscription. Or the occasional cost of an expansion for that matter. :)"

Maybe they complain because they want to keep it cheep :)

Also, I hope a lot of them are complaining because they are informed customers... With the rise of "freemium" MMOs as well as the online markets for single player games, it's VERY possible to make the $15 you would use for a sub stretch pretty far. You could use it to buy 1/1.5 indie games on X-box online, for example, or you could drop it into a whole other MMO and use their features a la carte and have a whole new set of features/different play experience.

Since it's competition that is making these games cheaper, I see very little need for brand loyalty. If I'm not enjoying a game enough to justify spending a monthly sub fee, there's no need to pay it. I prefer variety anyway...
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Posted: Sep 10th 2011 2:33PM (Unverified) said

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I am also an exception to this rule. I used to subscribe to LOTRO and am now a Premium level player so I don't pay monthly anymore. I had a lot of Turbine Points saved up but the only thing I have purchased is access to all the quest packs, 1 skirmish, extra legendary item slots for my characters that have legendary items, some extra vault space, and the gold cap removal. None of those things is what I would consider "convenience". I have never purchased a stat tome, experience boost, deed boost, dread removal, etc. I have also not bought Turbine Points, I earned them all in-game, through my time subscribing, and the loyalty program.

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