| Mail |
You might also like: WoW Insider, Joystiq, and more

Reader Comments (36)

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:01PM aaradun said

  • 1 heart
  • Report
to be honest after being sucked in a couple indie games, i'm not going to touch them with a stick for a long long time after they've been released and have been proven.

so ya, pass.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:13PM Seffrid said

  • 1 heart
  • Report
Double-dipping with both cash shops and subscriptions for launched games is one thing, paying a monthly sub for vaporware is something else altogether!

Pass.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:40PM SnarlingWolf said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Seffrid

Anytime I've ever heard of a new indie game done by volunteers only, it has disappeared before being finished. So I hear ya on not giving money to vaporware.

What they should do is get it to an Alpha state where people can log in and run around (and find bugs) and do a paid alpha into a paid beta. That way the people paying them can see that the game is progressing with weekly or monthly fixes/additions/features etc. Then give those players a bunch of bonus stuff come launch (or even better x amount of free time at launch to compensate them for their time paying during alpha/beta).


I did just come up with a great idea though. Download the unity engine. Stick some trees and snow in it, maybe a squirrel. Post a video of it and ask people to donate money on a per month subscription. Even if I only get 200 people to fall for it at $10 a month that is a sweet extra 2 grand a month in my pocket. Time to get to work...
Reply

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:24PM Scopique said

  • 3 hearts
  • Report
I feel for em, but this is the kind of thing Kickstarter was designed for.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:24PM Lenn said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I think it's a great idea to ask prospective players for donations to help fund development. Though I share others' concerns about this being vaporware.

But at least they're being open. They're not promising mountains and asking you to shell out for pre-orders, like some other games did.

But that brings me to one major point of criticism: what are their plans for this game? What will be the game elements? Skills system? Combat system? PvE or PvP or both? If PvP, will it be free for all with player looting? I couldn't really readily find any of this information on their site, without digging through all the forum posts.

As it stands now, they're asking people to entrust them with their money on the basis of one engine test.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 3:35PM Rob Steele said

  • 3 hearts
  • Report
@Lenn

We're currently working on getting the game website finished and ready for release to replace the current place holder we have now, in which information about the game will be more easily found.

In the mean time, let me direct you to this post:

http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/40-The-Vision?highlight=vision

... which I posted to help give an overview of what we are setting out to accomplish, what the goals are for the game, and what to expect if we are successful.

@ everyone making comments about us not having the start up capital we should have, not having a business plan etc. We have been in design and early development for over 8 months now and paid for everything out of pocket without any investments or donations up until just recently. We have also already secured many of the things we need, like licenses, software etc to make the game. Essentially the minimums have already been met, otherwise we would have never gone public with the game.
The donation system was brought about because we actually had community members that asked for a way to contribute, not because it was necessary to get started. Of course, every dollar that is raised through donations goes directly to furthering our project and helping to ensure we can continue the project and get closer to our goals before ever bringing an investor into the equation.
Anyone that understands anything about investments can tell you that once an investor is on board, they typically want a say in things, they also typically have an effect on focus of development, and it is likely that they could ask us to change focus to meet one benchmark or another.
The further along we are in development before that happens, the better.

@snarlingwolf
If we were using an engine that is free to work with, I could understand your concern and comment. However, we're not, nor do we intend to just take peoples money and run. hardly a good scam when you invest more money than you get back wouldn't you say?
Anyway, we're here to make a game that the entire team has been waiting for for a long time, and we're hopeful that through our hard work and dedication, as well as our communities support, we will be able to finish this dream, and provide a great and fun game for a lot of people.
Reply

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 4:17PM Lenn said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Rob Steele Thanks for that link. I have to admit it sounds impressive and I'd love to see more soon.
Reply

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:28PM PhelimReagh said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I wish them luck, as this is no doubt not an easy thing to do, but this looks, and the bleg on their website sounds, like any of these independent, sandbox, we-know-better-than-everyone crews that will release a bare shell of something resembling a game that has the kind of features and gameplay that only a teeny tiny niche would want to play.

Yet want you to pay $60 for a box and pay a sub for.

Again, good luck, but I see no reason to send "charity" to fund the development of a game that I probably wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot pole.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:34PM eLdritchZ said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
So they don't even have the money to make their game but they make blog posts about how all other MMOs suck?

that's funny ^^

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:47PM Space Cobra said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Sheesh, all this fear. "Potential Vaporware" (You know why that is, because money runs out...).

All these comments and those asking for for "innovative gameplay" remind me of the parable of the "Little Red Hen". At least these folks are trying to put their actions where their mouth is, how about some of the commentors here? They (Forsaken Studios) are probably taking the biggest risk. putting their own efforts and time on the line..

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 2:01PM SnarlingWolf said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Space Cobra

Putting their own time and money on the line... sure. Modelling software, Visual Studio, and Photoshop isn't that much money.

If they are licensing an existing engine than 1) that is their choice and therefore their added cost 2) they are already limiting themselves if they want to do innovation.

Renting server space from Amazon also is not that much money.

There is no need for them to be setting up recurring charges for donations as one month of donations will cover most of their costs.

As I said above, there is no point in paying them for nothing. Paying them to be part of the early Alpha/Beta when there is 1)proof of a game in the making 2) you can see the constant updates to know they are working on it and 3) some promise of future repayment such as no monthly costs for however many months you donated once it goes live. Until then it could easily either turn into vaporware or simply be a group of people that have absolutely no chance of pulling it off anyway.

I've seen indie groups get together as volunteers to make something innovative and to show companies how it is done. It always fizzles out.
Reply

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:50PM tk421242 said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I do not mind paying for a build that clearly has had work already done on it, but just a demo video I will not pay for. Project Zomboid is a great example of something I had no issue with paying a small fee for. Not an MMO of course, but just an example in my opinion of something that shows promise and is worth a small fee.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:56PM Apakal said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I heard something along the lines that this sandbox (already a negative in my book), is open PvP (strike 2) and full loot (strike 3).

Gamers don't want that sort of game (at least not the segment that companies make money off of). They will appeal to a niche, but if they don't have the money now, they aren't going to get that money from said niche.

Beyond that, MMOs aren't exactly a venture capitalist endeavors. Especially not know, with a soon to be crowded market of AAA titles and a faltering economy. Studios need to show high quality work and put out high quality games. Consumers are tired of the market saturation of crap (at least in the Western continents). This just spells bad news, despite the best intentions of the developers.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 1:56PM Twitchy5 said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
People really have to look at it from a developer's point of view (me being a developer and a gamer). People want free to play games, fine, but they need to make money some how, so they use cash shops, but no one buys from the cash shops, so they make pay to win items so people will buy that, again, people complain, so then gamers decide to make their own, and they need money from the player-base some how to get started off, so they ask for it, and everyone that complained says, "Thanks, but no thanks".

I really hate the MMO community today, and, yes, while I agree they do need to show a little more with the game, they can't do much without knowing they have the support of the fans, and have the financial needs. These guys didn't understand when starting out that it requires many resources to create a game, let alone an MMO. And I don't want to be a bummer, but they should make other games before doing an MMO, to get those financial needs to start with.

I like most MMOs, except ones that are just too much like others, but even then, if it stays in business, more power to them as they are obviously attracting players and giving players what they like. I like when they do cash shops, it keeps them in business and you can still play the game fully. Unless you NEED items from the cash shop, all it takes is just more skill. Riot actually did a very good job with their cash shop, but I believe that can only work in games like that and maplestory (before pets/marriage) because it is highly focused on your character's appearance, and you can't look "cool" without the cash shop.

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 2:07PM SnarlingWolf said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Twitchy5

I disagree with your first paragraph but the second one is correct.

If they are a small volunteer team with no money, they need to be making small games to start with. Make some iphone games, make some xbox live arcade games, make indie single player games you can sell on steam for $4. If they have any abilities they will start making a profit which they can use toward making an MMO. An MMO should never be the first project.
Reply

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 2:16PM Twitchy5 said

  • 2.5 hearts
  • Report
@SnarlingWolf
What do you disagree with?
I know most mmo players like to have one Pay-to-Play game, but they usually have other free to play games on the side.

And I wish games didn't have to have pay to win items (I never buy them anyways), but most of the time it doesn't work any other way. However, studios could use the new kind of cash shops that are being done now, like WoT; it has a cash shop so to speak, but it doesn't enhance you're skill, it only decreases the amount of time needed to play. I would like to see that system introduced into more games, but when you do sandbox games, especially ones that are realistic, it can be hard to do that.

And I'm not saying everyone complains about it, but I read some of the comments on massively and it saddens me to see players not getting how hard it is to make a game like that.
Reply

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 2:26PM DeadlyAccurate said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Twitchy5 "so then gamers decide to make their own, and they need money from the player-base some how to get started off, so they ask for it, and everyone that complained says, 'Thanks, but no thanks.'"

Then they can get money the way other businesses do: loans or investors. If they want my money, they're asking me to be an investor. So I'd want to know what the ROI will be. Asking for donations to start a business isn't any different than your neighbor asking you to spot him a few bucks so he can get his new business venture off the ground. He's not going to give you the money back, but he'll probably give you a discount once the shop opens. Maybe.

"These guys didn't understand when starting out that it requires many resources to create a game, let alone an MMO. And I don't want to be a bummer, but they should make other games before doing an MMO, to get those financial needs to start with."

Exactly. If the start-up capital for an MMO is more than they have available, they should scale back their goals. Make a single-player game first. Invest the profits back into the company. The fact that they were unaware of the necessary setup tells me they don't have a business plan in place.

Sure, some development houses start with nothing more than, "Ooh, wouldn't this be cool if..." and succeed. But most fizzle out once things get very tough (and once the initial excitement fades, it always gets tough).
Reply

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 2:33PM SnarlingWolf said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Twitchy5

First there are plenty of us that don't want "free games". We EXPECT to pay people for their work. I in fact do not have any F2P games on the side and refuse to play any of them or deal with stores. Yes I agree that companies need to make money which is exactly why I don't want to be involved with F2P games. They have to make money, therefore those items in the store will be necessary to buy, therefore pay to win is inevitable. Only greedy cheap people are demanding F2P games.

Also disagree with you saying it is wrong for people to laugh at these guys and not give them money. When you go to make a company YOU MAKE AN INVESTMENT IN YOUR COMPANY. You don't start a company and then go "Holy crap we need software for this let's beg for money". That shows that 1) you are clueless and destined to fail and 2) likely have never dealt with making a game of any kind (since you don't have any of the tools you need) and therefore have zero chance at making an MMO that works.

Also that video they have. When you get an engine such as Torque, you get a starter level with nice looking water, mountains, snow, falling snow, interiors, lighting and a moving character. So essentially they showed that they can install a game engine. Just wanted to throw that out there too.
Reply

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 2:41PM Twitchy5 said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@DeadlyAccurate
"Then they can get money the way other businesses do: loans or investors." Ahh, I was going to reference that point, and the problem with that is, is that who's going to give loans to a couple of out-of-the-blue people who's working on game that has no idea of how they're going to make money off of it. And also, what happens if they do just fizzle out? Like I said, I agree that they need to show more than just an engine test, but they also need to figure out how their income is going to work, but if they choose to do it by donations, then they need more demos, once they get that, I'll start donating to help.
Reply

Posted: Sep 2nd 2011 2:47PM Twitchy5 said

  • 2.5 hearts
  • Report
@SnarlingWolf

You may not play F2P games, but many, MANY other people do, so do not be one-sided on this. If everyone had that attitude where they just laughed at failures, then nothing new would be developed for the fear that they would get laughed at. It's better just to be honest about it, but don't be brutal, to the developers here I would say "Hey I like what you're doing, but you need to show us more before we donate our money.", instead of "WTF are you doing? You guys are losers and have no idea of what you are doing and just need to stop and go back to whatever you were doing before".
Reply

Featured Stories

Engadget

Engadget

Joystiq

Joystiq

WoW Insider

WoW

TUAW

TUAW