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Reader Comments (57)

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 10:45PM (Unverified) said

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It's called THE RAID. For christ's sake, what do you think it's going to show?

If you want a documentary on casuals, make one called THE CASUALS so we can see them play their game for an hour, standing at the Stormwind fountain rp'ing, and then logging off to go take care of their kids.

I think this film sounds like a complete and utter waste of time (one big WoW ad), but seriously - it's a "documentary" about raiding.

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 11:59PM Flicktion said

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Haven't watched it and don't plan on it seeing as I have little interest in raids, but man it sounds like they trolled the shit out of you guys.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 1:03AM (Unverified) said

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@Faction 3

Oh, I totally misremembered the context of the quotation. I thought you were talking about like level of dedication or something.

But I DEFINITELY agree with you on the point you're actually making. I mean, I think upwards of a billion people watch the World Cup. WoW will never have that playerbase, nor will video games in general. I do think the World Cup means more to most people than a video game ever will.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 1:14AM (Unverified) said

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I really don't understand the hate surrounding it.

The stereotypes complain is unwarranted. What, they should have specifically chosen to do the documentary on people who DON'T fit the negative image of WoW players, even though said people DO play WoW? So people are saying they should have reverse stereotyped and discriminated against people who play WoW? The point of the documentary was to showcase raiding and a specific guild's journey. They never once attempted to say "hey, all raiders are like these people!"

Also, I wasn't offended at all by the people in the guild. Greyhammer just seemed like someone who was over the top. I never once got the feeling like "Oh, Lore actually thinks girls suck, or this guy here's a racist."

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 2:05AM StampyIRL said

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This is a fair review. I personally didn't think it was all that good or interesting. I don't hate it, but I wouldn't recommend it or watch it again. To me, the lack of any bias is a real problem.

I appreciate it when film-makers have the cajones to let you know where they stand, even when I disagree with them. After watching The Raid, I have no idea if Kevin Michael Johnson is a critic or an apologist of the lifestyle. It seems like he doesn't care or he doesn't have a point.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 6:58AM Lafajet said

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I thought the documentary was fine but it really didn't go out of it's way to make me actually care aboute the subject. I agree with the point that there should have been more exploration of the players in a more personal space, letting us know their real motivations and what makes them tick. As it stands the film skimmed the surface and touced on some interesting dilemmas and situations, but that really didn't go much of anywhere.

A documentary that did this really well is Darkon, which focuses on a group of live action roleplayers (if you haven't seen it I really recommend it). Even if some of the things they do make me cringe as a LARPer myself and I don't think it's representative of LARPs as a whole I really feel for the people portrayed and relate to heir problems. That's when an okay documentary becomes arelly good documentary.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 9:31AM (Unverified) said

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@Bladerunner83

Your critique of Faction 3 just goes into the "merits" and forgets that the original statement he was quoting from the doc was equating an achievement that takes, at most, a couple of months of practice to master - to a competition between countries who field their best professionals. Professionals who, regardless of the value of their skills, have trained for years (probably since early childhood) in order to be where they are. The idea that it means as much for the top dpser to down the lich king as it does for the winning goal scorer in a World Cup final is absolutely ludicrous.

I digress to reinforce the actual argument. It's a total fallacy to remove that, relevant, argument in favour of one related, but not currently in discussion, argument you've added in to make yourself feel right. The fact you got upranked for such a bullshit post makes me loathe these morons here on Massively even more.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 9:51AM (Unverified) said

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It seems to me that a lot of the negativity stems around the fact that the raiders represented were pretty much the stereotype of a raider.

A lot more negativity regarding the documentray should come from its incredibly narrow field of view. The fact it encompasses nothing about its subjects outside of their time in front of the computer - that it offers very little in the way of a dialogue between different viewpoints, that it skimps so heavily on the real plague of mmos - that being the loss of control over how long and often one plays. Should all the other participants have been asked in depth about their playing habits after one of them revealed that he was struggling? Absolutely, yes. Should he have been followed up regarding the areas he is neglecting in his life? Absolutely yes.

The problem with the documentary is that any time a subject of interest that relates directly to the subject of raiding on its basic human scale, it's brushed aside. Whether the filmmaker was obsessed with keeping the film short and snappy or not, the loss of a inner life is terminal for it. It's so superficial that it hurts.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 9:53AM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified)

And in addition - the mention of missed opportunities highlights how little human drama runs through the documentary. If you're making a film in that genre, human drama is the only focus you should have. There are just too many talking heads and not enough dynamic events.
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Posted: Aug 12th 2011 10:02AM Bladerunner83 said

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" The idea that it means as much for the top dpser to down the lich king as it does for the winning goal scorer in a World Cup final is absolutely ludicrous. "

You didn't read my first post:
raids are nothing compared to a World Cup Championship victory

"It's a total fallacy to remove that, relevant, argument in favor of one related, but not currently in discussion, argument you've added in to make yourself feel right."

If someone called you out, I'm sure you would be pissed too. Football is nothing in my world and there are many other people that feel the same way. If it makes me feel better to voice my opinion, than that's my fucking choice. Does it make you feel better, rebutting my statement?

" The fact you got unranked for such a bullshit post makes me loathe these morons here on Massively even more. "

The idiot came to an MMO blog website and attacked a fellow gamer. Pointing out that his opinion was superior an everyone else was a mongoloid. Go bitch about gamers on a football blog.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 10:04AM Bladerunner83 said

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@(Unverified)

Page 2
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Posted: Aug 12th 2011 6:04PM Faction 3 said

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@Bladerunner83

I don't know what the hell you're smoking, chief, but I'd love it you'd pass some my way.

Never once did I "call you out" before you started taking everything personal and out of context. I'll even Cut/Paste my first response to you:

"Taking out the Lich King as a world first is not an easy task. There was one guild that used an ingame bug to cheat, just to be the first to down him"

Yeah, Who cares.

Seriously, If anyone here will compare the equasion....
(snip)

I dont see a @Bladerunner83 anywhere, I quoted a SINGLE SENTENCE of your post, then responded accordingly, THEN went on to say "IF ANYONE", meaning anyone in general, not necessarily you. After that, you started on a tyrant-like rant criticizing Soccer Players and claiming Im calling you a Nerd...which Stevie Wonder can see never happened....you took it all personal, and then began downvoting everyone who didnt agree with you.

Again, like Puremallace & Neverdeath, perhaps reading EXACTLY what you're quoting, would be a good idea from here on out.

I mean c'mon dude, I have over a dozen people here already agreeing with me...enough already.

And stop with the language too, all of my cuss' I chose to block, Kids read this blog too.
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Posted: Aug 12th 2011 1:16PM Rengar said

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@(Unverified)
I think what a lot of people neglect to talk about is the context in which Castronova is making his statement. He's talking about the reason people get together and raid. For a good portion of those people and the good feeling you get from achieving something difficult, particularly something that you cannot do alone.

Sure from an outside objective point of view you'd never equate beating the Lich King to winning the World cup.

As a participant in the activity though the feeling you get from accomplishing something that very very difficult regardless of how important it seems to the objective viewer is very similar.

Many of us have played THAT video. You know the one the is so hard, frustrating and rage inducing that you near break your controller in half.
Remember this feeling you had when you Finally after months and months of trying beat that game. That is the same positive feeling you get from working together to finish a particularly hard raid with several other people.

That idea is what Castronova is trying to convey with is analogy, not the literal objective view of the two achievements.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 2:20PM Djinn said

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@Faction 3
Not having seen the film, I don't know what Castronovo actually said. But I took the comment as meaning "We felt as excited as if we had won a World Cup Championship victory." I did not at all think they were saying that the achievement was the same. People are so quick to cut others down. I guess that's why we hear about all the horrible things happening over the internet.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 5:05PM MetaReal said

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"""All three have done a lot of research on virtual worlds, and each helped to give some perspective on why this guild and raid content were so significant."""

That is precisely the problem in my opinion. It is still difficult and courageous for academics to speak of the existence of some positive sides to competitive gaming. The filming of that particular group didn't illustrate their positive statements which is a problem.

Why this is not the group the experts were talking about?
In the documentary we learn form those raiders:
Lore (Guild master) : "being rude is always more fun"
one of the raider : "it's really weird, we can say whatever we want"
another raider about Lore: "he's not very guild mastery type of person"

I have nothing against Lore (I like what he does at gamebreaker and Tankspot) or those people, I even find them attaching despite the cursing but this is not the typical progressive raiding guild the experts were talking about.
From the quotes above it is obvious that this group has no rules. Why? because they are a group of "friend" and as such don't need rules maybe. Progressive raiding guilds in my experience are very codified and you don't play only with great friends like top soccer players have to put up with rules and other people to be as efficient as possible as a team.

Also we all learned the importance of the introduction and conclusion at school right?

Introduction: a tired man struggle to get out of bed and survive on energy drinks from an empty fridge. The introduction hook here is negative, it shows an unhealthy life to start with.
Conclusion: "cursing". I can bare it (even if i don't like it) but please not as the conclusion which define the essence of the group, the final message that the director wanted everyone to remember.

YES there are really big problems in WoW raiding but here the director delivered his message and it is a negative one (either by courage or because "there's nothing like bad publicity", i don't know) and the chosen group wasn't the one the experts were talking about and i feel sorry for them.

Otherwise, yes, it was very well filmed but it wasn't really a documentary about a typical progressive raiding guild.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 5:38PM Vandal said

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Personally, I hope ten years from now this film is regarded as a documented legacy of a game mechanic that was thrown out by the MMO industry in favor of better designs in game mechanics. We're already seeing hints of those future designs today. It's food to document it so the fortunate future generation of MMO players can watch it and shake their heads at what people used to pay money to do.

Posted: Aug 12th 2011 6:10PM Faction 3 said

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@Vandal

LOL!! Yeah!

I can only imagine the same effect on other media...like my Father used to tell me when my Grandparents used to say The Rolling Stones and Jimi Hendrix was "Racket! Turn it off! Its awful!", now its considered the greatest music ever. I shudder to think that my Grandkids will think Justin Beiber or Katy Perry is on the same level....

Good GOD!!
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