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Reader Comments (130)

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 4:30PM Dril said

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@Tizmah

And that's your opinion, Tizmah.

And again: if you think the endgame isn't a journey in itself (or, better yet, part of the journey) then there's little to discuss here.
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 4:54PM Vgk said

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@Mtor If having a good amount of quality enjoyable endgame content makes a game a WoW clone then I wish more games were WoW clones
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 5:10PM Jenks said

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@Tizmah

Right on, you should want to play the game, not some particular aspect of it. It's just a lot easier to crank out formulaic "end game" content than it is to create a real changing game world to keep people interested.
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 5:11PM Equillian said

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@Dril

HA! So if we dont agree with you then you're not discussing?

200+, not 100+ hours of storyline. New approach to crafting, story that matters, what looks to be 16 different specs per side (assuming the shared tree isnt a viable option, then it would be 20 per side) Instances, exploration, roleplay, open world pvp (planet dedicated to it on a pvp server or not), music that I could just sit there for HOURS listening to, building friendships with not only people, but pixels too... and RAIDING is the only thing that's important to you at end game? How short-sighted. I pity you.
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 6:00PM Dril said

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@Equillian

"HA! So if we dont agree with you then you're not discussing?"

There is no "discussion" to be had if our views our so diametrically opposed, and, since they're purely subjective, it'd devolve into flaming (oh wait, you've already started flaming at the end of your post. Well, if you insist...)

-I didn't mention anything about TOR's levelling time, just levelling in general.
-You mean totally automated NPC crafting?
-"Matters" has yet to be determined. If it's just "U R LIGHTSIDE. HAFF LIGHTISDE PRPLZ" then I'll pass.
-Other games have more options. This isn't a big deal.
-The rest of that stuff is in most MMOs as well.

No, not raiding. The endgame. The place where there's no longer the arbitrary level deciding what I can/can't do and who I can/can't do it with, the place where I'll be spending most of my time and where most of the MM bit of MMORPG will take place.

If the journey is fantastic, but the endgame is shite, I might level an alt or two. But the endgame (and the people you meet there) is what keeps people playing for years.
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 6:08PM EMH said

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@Equillian

Where did anyone say there is going to be a dedicated PvP planet at launch? The only time I remember hearing that was when a tester speculated that the 2 extra planets (the result of a mistake by one of the designers who said that there are 19 planets in game instead of 17) were dedicated to endgame PvE and PvP. There has not been an official dev comment on that, I believe.

Even so, this "only 1 operation" thing that people have been throwing around is also false. The devs said that they've only announced 1 operation so far, and a lot interpreted that to mean "only 1 operation at launch!" We don't know how many operations there will be at launch, it's very possible they'll announce 1 or 2 more in the coming months.
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 7:28PM Tizmah said

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@Dril No, you just fail to look past and see the larger picture here Dril. I'm clearly saying MMOs should do away with the "concept" of end game. You like to aspect of doing hard dungeons over and over or what ever end game entails that you like. I'm not saying that should be done away with. But I am saying that eliminating "end game" as a whole is much better. I'm NOT saying what you enjoy should be taken away, like getting awesome gear, grouping with team mates to over take hard stuff and it taking hours to do, etc. But I am saying that this narrow minded, short lived concept of "end game" as it is now needs to die in MMOs.

Your concept of end game is stale and small. We are thinking on a much larger scale of "journey" here. Not just 1-100 in levels. I'm talking about combining the end game and "journey" as you see it into a cohesive hole.

An MMO shouldn't have an "end game". An MMO should be a limitless virtual world of discovery with friends. It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of improvement.

Why should a separation of "the journey" and "end game" exist? Why can't I do "end game" stuff that I enjoy at the beginning of the game. Why don't raids exist at low levels? Why must it be end game?

The separation of end game and the journey needs to stop.
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 7:32PM (Unverified) said

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@Equillian

8 days played to finish the story content.
That is a lot of space rats to kill.
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 8:02PM (Unverified) said

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@Tizmah
An MMO shouldn't have an "end game". An MMO should be a limitless virtual world of discovery with friends. It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of improvement.

however that is not possible with limited resources for development.

Why should a separation of "the journey" and "end game" exist? Why can't I do "end game" stuff that I enjoy at the beginning of the game. Why don't raids exist at low levels? Why must it be end game?

because your character becomes more powerful the more you play, rendering earlier content as trivial (in the sense that you can go afk for 15 mins with a mob hitting you and come back to one shot it)
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 8:07PM (Unverified) said

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@Equillian it would be 200+ hours of story if you need them all to get to max level (which I'm hoping is not the case or it will feel extremely on rails, and that's not good for an mmo), and it won't be so compelling to go back to save the jawas from the level 15 sand people at end level.

that's why I only counted 100+
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 9:21PM Dril said

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@Tizmah

No, I have *clearly* said several times that I consider the endgame to be a journey. I don't see why more "journey" needs to be added.

Can we have new features in that area? Yeah, sure. I didn't dispute that.

But unlimited progression, with no incentive to keep going? Why not just do away with progression altogether and turn MMOs into lobby-based games with playfields you can select?

I *like* the idea that the journey leads somewhere. I'd be pretty pissed off if it never ended, because then there would be no goal (and I like goals.) I like the idea that the journey reaches a corner and then turns, taking you on a new path of advancement.

The first part should teach what you need to know for the section around the corner, and so and so forth. The journey only ends if you always look at not levelling as "the journey's over" and try and twist the meaning of endgame to literally mean the absolute end of the game.

That's the beauty of MMOs. The journey is always there, in one way or another, but it is not unlimited. It stops when you stop suspending your disbelief.
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Posted: Aug 13th 2011 4:24PM Ghostspeaker said

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@Dril

I think you and Tizmah both have valid points, but I'd like to address one thing you said:

"If the journey is fantastic, but the endgame is shite, I might level an alt or two. But the endgame (and the people you meet there) is what keeps people playing for years."

That's not necessarily true. CoH has had a complete lack of real endgame (except for Hamilol, arguably, and even that hasn't been relevant in ages) until a few months ago. Endgame in CoH has always been "roll an alt". And yet it's been around longer than WoW and has one of the most stable and devoted communities I've ever seen in an MMO. Sandbox games also don't have an endgame and yet people keep playing those for years too.

Not saying that endgame doesn't keep people playing since obviously it does, judging by the success of WoW and RoM and many others. But it's far from the only way to keep people playing. There's lots of ways to skin a cat here.
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 2:38PM Userfriendlygaming said

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CHA CHING!!! Bioware

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 2:40PM (Unverified) said

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sustainable subs is the key, If they keep millions of subscribers that will be the real accomplishment.

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 2:43PM Bramen said

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Wait, Star Wars is selling well!?
Next they will tell me that people are looking forward to GW2!?
I wonder if this is the kind of superstition that is going to be found in Secret World.

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 2:43PM (Unverified) said

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If this was EA predictions I'd be both worried and somewhat saddened that they were so buoyed up with self-confidence and arrogance based purely on pre-order sales.

As it is, it's just another financial speculator. I'm sure it makes EA's execs all nice and happy, but I'd rather wait for some hard sales facts AFTER launch rather than get all buoyed up over what is essentially a guess.

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 2:43PM (Unverified) said

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If this was EA predictions I'd be both worried and somewhat saddened that they were so buoyed up with self-confidence and arrogance based purely on pre-order sales.

As it is, it's just another financial speculator. I'm sure it makes EA's execs all nice and happy, but I'd rather wait for some hard sales facts AFTER launch rather than get all buoyed up over what is essentially a guess.

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 2:43PM Comrade Domovoi said

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This game simply cannot fail IMO. Its like a refined World of Warcraft with an insane amount of single player content unique to each class, better graphics (I'm not one of those people but cmon, WoW's art style can only do so much nowadays), what seems like very good engine scaleability for a range of system setups, and all the other MMO stuff, oh and its frickin Star Wars. This isn't the WoW killer (nothing but time is), but it is the bite-WoW-in-the-asser.

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 2:44PM Interitus said

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I don't know why they care about box sales, it doesn't equal subscriptions. You would think they article would be based on their estimated subscription numbers which is more important.

Posted: Aug 11th 2011 4:29PM Sente said

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@Interitus
That is the retention part of the prediction.

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