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Reader Comments (32)

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 3:43PM Deadalon said

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CC fraud will rise even more with Diablo real money AH. NOt to mention all the CC information kids will be stealing from their parents to play a 16+ restricted game...

And thats why it should never be on the same Battlenet account as other games that are for 12 year old kids.

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 3:45PM PsychoBowl said

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So why not just separate the auction houses by region like Diablo 3 will be doing?

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 3:45PM Jef Reahard said

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Great article. This always goes unsaid in all the debates about gold farming and RMT, and I'm happy to see it here.

To my way of thinking, all of the effort expended by devs to control the economy is a waste of resources and ultimately futile. Much like heavy-handed regulation in the real world, all it does is negatively affect the people who play by the rules, it doesn't stop the rule-breakers.

Gold farming is part of online virtual worlds, always has been, and curtailing an economy to the point where it is no longer an economy is not a "solution" so much as it is bad design.

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 4:40PM Irem said

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@Jef Reahard
I despise gold selling but I tend to agree. One of the reasons I left FFXI was that their ant-RMT measures made it increasingly more difficult for legit players to make money, when the entire reason they were flourishing in the game in the first place was because it was -already- pretty difficult to maintain a steady, adequate gil income with a reasonable time investment. I've never played another game where RMT so deeply affected the experience, but no other game I've played made it so incredibly hard for a player to support their character through the course of normal activities. If they'd stuck to banning botters and created more ways for people to reliably make gil, it wouldn't have solved the problem, but we might not have had RMT and legit players both desperately fighting over the same rare sources of income.
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Posted: Aug 10th 2011 5:48PM jeremys said

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@Jef Reahard I second Jef and applaud Karen. Todays economies really aren't much of an economy and there's really not much fun to be had with them.

At best, I can undercut to make sure my stuff is sold or buy out a lot and immediately post it for a small profit. but that small profit can't come close to making me any real profit with the time needed to do that.

And economies rarely even fluctuate anymore. I think a side-effect of this is player back-lash when some change(usually by the devs) actually changes the pricing scale. Players get upset and I'm not quite sure it it's because they've grown accustom to an auction house with static prices like that of NPCs in one-player RPGs, if it's because the players actually have no power(or little power) over affecting the prices or a both.

/sigh... I hate gold-buying/gold-farming.
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Posted: Aug 10th 2011 5:54PM Deadalon said

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@Jef Reahard

You will never stop any illegal or undesired actions all together. Be that Gold farming - money laundering (RL and now more and more in games with real Money) terrorism or even murders. What you can do is to make it perfectly clear that this behavior is not tolerated. What is happening right now is exactly the opposite. More and more games consider it to be a "feature" in their game like Blizzard is doing with Diablo. So basically - new rules are set where money laundering is allowed in few countries... and the rest of the world is expected to fight it...

But claiming that the actions of the developers is only hurting the real players is just stupid. We have police in RL for a reason. They have a job that the rest of the community has agreed upon as laws. If that affects real life ppl to withold the law then so be it. The problem starts when people think they dont have to follow the laws. Thats what is happening more and more in the world of gaming. And the developers are not taking a stand against it. Instead they are trying to find ways to make more money of it - not realising the real dmg that is yet to happen to every gamer that is now living in a lawless online world.

You dont allow a 12 year old kid to trade with CC in your local store. But it will become more and more common to see this happen and the victims are RL ppl that are not even playing the games. Thats the reality where games like Diablo are taking us into. THey are legalising not only goldfarming - but also itemsellling in every single game ever created. You can not fight against it when 1 of the biggest desides its time to grab the cash and open up the biggest gaming account system in the world as a trading shop with real money.

Obviously some ppl are only in it for the buisness - And obviously that includes Massively.
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Posted: Aug 10th 2011 5:58PM Deadalon said

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@Jef Reahard
@Jef Reahard

You will never stop any illegal or undesired actions all together. Be that Gold farming - money laundering (RL and now more and more in games with real Money) terrorism or even murders. What you can do is to make it perfectly clear that this behavior is not tolerated. What is happening right now is exactly the opposite. More and more games consider it to be a "feature" in their game like Blizzard is doing with Diablo. So basically - new rules are set where money laundering is allowed in few countries... and the rest of the world is expected to fight it...

But claiming that the actions of the developers is only hurting the real players is just stupid. We have police in RL for a reason. They have a job that the rest of the community has agreed upon as laws. If that affects real life ppl to withold the law then so be it. The problem starts when people think they dont have to follow the laws. Thats what is happening more and more in the world of gaming. And the developers are not taking a stand against it. Instead they are trying to find ways to make more money of it - not realising the real dmg that is yet to happen to every gamer that is now living in a lawless online world.

You dont allow a 12 year old kid to trade with CC in your local store. But it will become more and more common to see this happen and the victims are RL ppl that are not even playing the games. Thats the reality where games like Diablo are taking us into. THey are legalising not only goldfarming - but also itemsellling in every single game ever created. You can not fight against it when 1 of the biggest desides its time to grab the cash and open up the biggest gaming account system in the world as a trading shop with real money.

Obviously some ppl are only in it for the buisness - And obviously that includes Massively.
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Posted: Aug 11th 2011 12:03PM Irem said

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@Deadalon
I don't think Jef is saying that we should just let RMT run wild--rather that they're always going to be there to some extent and the answer is -not- shutting down options for legit players. In real life, the police are necessary, but they're less necessary in places where people aren't desperate and crime isn't an attractive lifestyle choice. The same holds true for MMOs. See my FFXI example above. Square Enix did everything in their power to target and attack RMT, and the result was that they impacted gameplay more and more because they were desperately competing with legitimate players for some of the only sources of income in the game--rare spawns, farmed crafting materials, and even EXP camps as they had to constantly replace banned characters. The thing that made it so attractive for them to make the effort was how rare gil was in the first place, so between them monopolizing drops and spawns and SE shutting down any sort of repeatable quest, vendor-salable item, or activity that might yield steady income, it really did lead to players suffering more.

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Posted: Aug 10th 2011 3:51PM DevilSei said

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@Ren54

Seeya, don't let the door hit that stuck-up arse of yours on the way out!

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 4:33PM (Unverified) said

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Rift is making the exact same mistake EQ2 did. They are making the game no fun by trying to fight RMT. On top of that they are fighting a loosing battle. Well, maybe they have some magical formula they think will work where every other mmo has failed.

RMT happens, spend resources fighting it, the credit card fraud, wasted csr time and hurting the fun of your in game and it spells game over. Diablo 3 has the right idea. There is no way to stop it. Better it is safe for everyone and those dollars can be spent on making the game better.

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 4:38PM osamaelshimy said

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@DoctorSmart Personal bolgs huh? When beau gives first impressions or visit an old game or talking about mobile mmos are personal bolgs, I would call your comments as personal trash.

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 4:43PM Apakal said

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@Ren54

Why do you need a constant stream of articles for a game you're already playing anyways? Don't you get enough news in the forums?

Or are you so childish that you seriously expect the world to cater to your every whim and desire?

That's what I thought.

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 4:45PM dndhatcher said

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Farming stuff to earn in-game currency to buy stuff in-game is the gaming economy.

The problem is players willing to violate the EULA and spend money instead of time to get the gold. Without those players to sell to, the "illegal" gold farmers would not be there.

One solution is to sell in-game currency direct to players at a low enough rate that farmers cant make a profit and leave. You pretty much guarantee a pay to win situation when you do that, but realistically the pay to win already existed because of the farmer selling gold to an unethical player.

D3 has really taken it a step further and bound their in-game currency to a real life currency. Hello governments, come tax my in-game "wealth" that now has real life value.

The world economy is changing. A few years ago I read an article about how a currency speculator briefly owned more New Zealand currency than New Zealand had printed in the history of the country. The Financial definition of real and virtual is very tenuous as the bulk of the worlds wealth is now 1s and 0s and not physical goods.

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 5:01PM Gaugamela said

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I actually never given any thought on how gold farming and gold selling impacted game design.
However, it would be interesting to see more games embracing a system similar to EVE's PLEX.

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 5:44PM DoctorSmart said

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@osamaelshimy Love how Beau follows me around to delete my comments. Anyways, my point still stands, at least this article is on topic.

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 5:49PM Celtar said

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Great points Karen and I totally agree. Btw one of the reasons I lost interest in Rift was due to a solid crafting based economy, it was an important reason but not the only one.

Scott is a great guy and his love for the genre and sincerity always comes through when you watch interviews or interact with him. I continue to hope that Rift continues to do well, more companies should operate like Trion does.

The fixes for the issues of course aren't easy and I don't envy Trion or any of the other companies trying to come up with a productive way to stop or reduce the impact of the gold farmers etc.



Posted: Aug 10th 2011 5:49PM Oskari said

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@Ren54

Is that you, Puremallace?

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 6:16PM (Unverified) said

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Eves plex?

you do realise that according to CCP themselves one of the problems they have with it are stolen Credit cards used to buy plex.

the reality is that all that actualy happend was the hacking efforts steped up because the grey market had compitition and needed to sell more Isk per transaction to "compete" I think I saw an estimate that for every WOW accuont thats actualy hacked and striped, they have the login data on 20-30 more, partly because they need to be able to get gold to match a customer on a specific server and Blizzard has hundred of them.

Posted: Aug 10th 2011 6:42PM Deadalon said

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@(Unverified)
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Posted: Aug 10th 2011 6:48PM Deadalon said

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@Deadalon

Thankfully Eve has system that follows plex vs real money. Blizzard is not even gonna do that. They are gonna allow unlimited access for ppl to buy and sell items between CCs. Its moronic and sick when you realise what is going on in the real world. And to hear them say its "safer" is so sick when you realise who will be taking full advantage of this.

For example - Personally.. I can probably easily get my hands on over 500 CCs informations. But I only need one - then go into these accounts and cheat huge amount of real money off it to buy 10 more accounts to cheat even more. Ive seen it done plenty of times - even tho I dont do it. To think that it will solve any problems to allow this is beyond stupid. And the game developers and ppl like Jeff know it. Basicly they are allowing the black market to move into games. And that will dmg gaming for years and years to come. It will for example finish of the PC gaming market for good.
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