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Posted: Aug 5th 2011 12:13PM Space Cobra said

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@Saker (a bit @ Sean D)

I have a friend that also thinks somewhat like Saker is saying, but in a "Generation X" and some later generation life/thing. Basically, not just the internet, but lots of other things in life have given a sense of entitlement to many of the people. Not only credit cards, but even products, such as a new model debuting faster than before. I don't totally believe it, but I don't totally discount it, either: There may be some truth in there mixed with other factors.

I have noticed the world getting faster and even my own attention span getting smaller and I don't think it's lack of patience. In the past, news programs, particularly national ones, lasted an hour and a news report could last 5-10 minutes, depending on how important it was (try googling news videos from the 1970's or watching the MacNeil/Lehrer News Hour on your local PBS station for the contrast). The same can be said about movies: in the 1960's-70's, things tended to be more cerebral: You thought deeply about topics and let things build up (again, watch old Doctor Who or even Star Trek TOS or Space 1999) and now, I feel myself not as patient (although interestingly, very young kids are patient and do get into old Doctor Who as much as the new stuff, but I was like that too with my interests).

So, it might be corporations and movies that make such fads short term and makes us eager for the next "big thing" until we tire out of it. I realize, through my hobby, I want to play things fast and move on, for variety's sake. This is both a blessing and a curse. That's not to say I am not patient, I have bucketloads (and in fact, I am now concentrating on some favorites), but I do wonder about our "disposable" society. It's pretty much like the heyday Japan of the 1980's (where Urban Legend has it that people would buy new electronics whenever they came out and put perfectly good, 6 month old stuff, by the corner to be thrown away. Not quite the same here in the states, but it sometimes seems like it, doesn't it?)

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Posted: Aug 5th 2011 12:57PM Sean D said

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@Saker

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that games are the cause, only that games contribute to and reflect the growing sense of entitlement in us all.

Sean
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Posted: Aug 5th 2011 1:26PM Sean D said

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@Space Cobra

Planned obsolescence - everything is intended to wear out or break in a relatively short period of time - is part of what drives economies. Interesting avenues of thought might appear when the idea of planned obsolescence is paired with the real state of the US economy right now. I believe planned obsolescence leads to stagnation as real progress (a cell phone that lasts 50 years, the hundred-year light bulb, etc.) is disfavored.

In games, though, the idea of planned obsolescence with MMOs is a strange one. MMOs are intended to be persistent to a degree, but persistence isn't necessarily what satisfies people who continually want the next best thing (to progress). Nor is it really in the best interest of the developers to create truly persistent games when the majority of players are always screaming for change. They'll lose their client base if they don't comply. As new content is introduced, old content is experienced less (for longer-time players). It used to take months to reach the level cap in an MMO. Now it takes a matter of weeks. Players spend only days or less in each zone. Blizzard continually updates and patches classes in order to keep a rotation going; to keep the game fresh and maintain the illusion of balance. A conflict of ideals occurs to some extent.

It's all too fast and moving faster, you're right. There's something discomforting about it. Games, especially MMOs, could be used to confront and combat the growing entitlement tendency in all of us, or to strengthen it by gratifying our every in-game desire, but the choice to use them as one or the other is completely up to each individual player whenever he/she logs in.
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Posted: Aug 5th 2011 7:08PM Borick said

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@Sean D Because the games are arbitrarily engineered, they will never provide a satisfactory environment for progress.

Progress 'advances' through loopholes and exploits in an environment that protects ownership. Otherwise you will always wind up wasting too much energy on overarching garbage, and the good ideas will work to escape the system that taxes them.

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Posted: Aug 5th 2011 11:04AM (Unverified) said

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YES, but not all. (Loopy - A LOT of mmo players ALSO play fps shooters, and therefore are combined as one nutbag)

Of most mmoRPG players, about 50% are normal, friendly players that play their mmo of choice a few hrs a day or a few times per week and of course, play the game CORRECTLY.

25% are the hardcore pvp/solo/raiders, BUT, are friendly like the above players, escept that they have more time to play and are online multiple hours most days.

Then theres the last 25% 1 out of 4 mmo players fall into this bracket, especially lately in mmos.


As unbelievable as it is, these players are mostly the worst human TRASH in existence. There players make "twinks", dont read quest text, race through dungeons, hunt and camp lower level players, rant on the forums and troll chat channels with idiotic remarks and "spelling corrections" - the last being the saddest one of all lol.
There players usually HATE their mmo of choice and have sabotaged their own gameplay, so they ONLY care about being #1. That could mean many things, it all depends on what "being #!" means to that psycho sob whos thinking about it lol/

These people are SOCIALLY DYSFUNCTIONAL, EMOtional, hateful, rude, greedy, foul and ignorant TRASH that dont deserve to play mmos. BUT, because they dont behave this way at all times, and are selective in who they show their true form to, its hard to spot them at times.

Though FPS players may rage and yell from dying or complain about a sucky teammate....

MMO trash are 1000x worse because they believe their mmo is their REAL life - lol

Lots of amazing people playing mmos, unfortunately a good 20-40% are the worlds biggest pieces of trash scum. But thats what we have to putr up with until DEVS grow a pair and start perma-BANNIng these lil fracks!

-S

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 11:28AM tooright said

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@(Unverified) U MAD BRO? U MAAAAD?
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Posted: Aug 5th 2011 11:23AM Irem said

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I don't think it's that we're significantly angrier, but that we spend a lot more time interacting with each other in the context of the games we play. When your enjoyment of a game is at least partially dependent on the influence of other people, tensions are bound to be higher, especially when players are in competition (PvP, economy play, loot rolls, raid spots, ect.).

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 11:34AM tooright said

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Vehemently disagreeing here Jef,

Not going to throw out fake statistics but the vast majority MMO nerds I have interacted with over the years have been totally normal to tame on the angry nerd-rage scale.

Now play a MOBA / DOTA style game like HoN sometime and then see who really wears the anger management crown

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 11:37AM Saker said

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As the numbers of people playing MMO's has grown the over-all community has gone down-hill unfortunately. I believe the smaller community size in "the old days" just plain forced people to behave better. Also as the median age of the community has gone down the maturity level seems to have gone down (corresponding lack of impulse control perhaps), the infamous "WoW-kiddies". And the PvP-centric games seem to have MUCH angrier people in general.

Posted: Aug 6th 2011 9:35PM xyna031 said

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I know -_-

LOLOLOL Thats why i said it
actually i loved it
Specially the part when he was training!
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Posted: Aug 5th 2011 12:15PM xilr said

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I dont think its a problem with the MMO gamer, I think its a problem with the MMO. If we gamers choose to play inside an MMO World, then we obviously like something about that world.

But in an MMO there is no democracy. We live in the world, and decisions are made that effect us and we have no "real" input. Sure some developers take player feedback into consideration, but at the end of the day the developer has TOTAL UNCHECKED POWER. Our only option is to accept all of their decisions or leave a world we otherwise like.

Living in a world where we have no control whatsoever creates tension and anxiety in the MMO gamer. But that isnt the only problem the MMO gamer faces. The next ingredient in the recipe for anger is "other players". Sure they can kill steal, ninja loot and be general butthelmets, but it gets even worse when compounded with the aforementioned problem of powerlessness.

Lets say your favorite class in a hypothetical MMO is a "Purple Mage". You've spent a year or more playing a "Purple Mage". The MMO in question has several other classes, and the developers keep making poor choices in balancing your "Purple Mage" This causes you to be apprehensive towards the game in general. But what pushes you over the edge is when you log on the forums to find there is a balance discussion about "Purple Mages" and half or more of the population agrees with the poor choices the developers are making. Perhaps "Purple Mages" counter "Green Warriors" quite well. You notice ALL the Green Warriors are cheering on Purple Mage nerfs. The "Teal Rogues" are strangely silent, knowing they already dominate Purple Mages.

You as a Purple Mage player look on at pages and pages of propaganda, misinformation and outright lies. Any information given by an actual Purple Mage player is quickly dismissed.

Now your gameplay experience is forever harmed by clueless developers and an angry mob of your "peers". You were wronged by people who couldnt trouble themselves to find the truth and by forum trolls that just wanted to watch someone get hurt. Your angry. Congratulations, your now an Angry MMO Gamer.

I've played MMOs since Ultima Online. The story above is not something I've experienced once, rather I've experienced it in almost every MMO I've played. The cycle is tedious and very predictable

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 1:29PM alinos said

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@xilr

I dunno about you,

But in the real world the govt has total complete power. Power we give to them

Developer or govt there is no difference.

Both have power, both take money. Both only have power so long as we continue to allow them to
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Posted: Aug 5th 2011 12:21PM Elikal said

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For me I can say, I guess it comes with age. Or in the immortal words of Jolee Bindo:

"You know what I hate? Well, lots of things, actually. But I'm old, and easily annoyed."

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 12:43PM Utakata said

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I think it's more likely that we're exposed to angry players in an MMO than we would be playing a single player game. One isn't going to meet many people, angry or otherwise, if they play by themselves. :)

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 12:56PM Yukon Sam said

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I see a lot of "golden age" thinking here. "Things were so much better back then..."

Poppycock.

Trolls and flame wars have been with us from day one. The cognative phenomenon of selective memory makes them seem more or less common (to jibe with our personal worldview), but that's anecdote, not evidence.

The only difference I've seen is in how quickly and effectively moderators act to contain the most inflammatory instances.

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 2:19PM Space Cobra said

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@Yukon Sam

Speaking for myself, not so much "rose-colored glasses" as looking at it pragmatically. Yes, you had jerks and flame wars back then; I remember them well. You had temperamental personalities, but still, the technology of the time and use of it was relatively infant. You had some time to think. Less people on forums. Even this blog, the way it scrolls the newest subject at the top and leaves topics of less than so many hours and days at the bottom, really, who reads those older topics? (I do at times, if I miss them, but I may be aberrant at that!) Past a week, even the popular top five replied topics are gone. And heck, if you revive a topic more than a month old, people think of you funny, because the topic of conversation is over-and-done with. If such a topic is more than a few months old and you really wanted to contribute, some accuse you of necroing.

Really, I like facts, too, but sometimes, it is harder to put those into solid and verifiable proof, so you have to be pragmatic with one's anecdotes and look at not only yourself, but the culture around you and varying view points, so it is more balanced, more or less.
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Posted: Aug 5th 2011 1:01PM EdmundDante said

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I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it ANYMORE.

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 1:26PM alinos said

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I don't think so, i actually think that most of the anger that pops up is when someone that a person doesn't play the game with regularly causes a wipe or the like.

Which is ironically the opposite of something like an FPS where if a good player comes on and starts kicking a bunch of the crappier players arses.

They start calling Hax and it all goes downhill.

But i would say out of game MMO gamers tend to be angrier than FPS

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 1:33PM (Unverified) said

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It's definitely and evil-begets-new-evil system. I've seen a lot of people come in 'jaded' thinking an mmo is another opportunity to meet new people online, and then get absolutely destroyed in various chats by veteran players (and, sorry, but this is in-fact defined as a sense of entitlement) whom choose one of the big three to do so. The big three I'm referring to is elitist, troll, or old-timer. To explain, let me go into the different types for the people whom aren't following (though most of you are already pretty familiar just by me naming them, I am actually trying to make a point outside of mere explanation of point).
Elitists are, subjectively, people whom are submerged in the game enough and devote enough resources (time being the largest of commodities) to be the 'best' in the game. Coincidentally, the term 'best' is used here loosely, considering what one might consider to be such might hold no weight from another point-of-view. In a game genre that's very title contains so many factors (mmorpg), there is no real way to say which of those words secures this sense of entitlement. This, in turn, causes anxiety based on a lack of validation, which causes fear, and ultimately leads to anger.
The trolls are what you are going to run into most-likely the most. They are the sect of 'molestus gratia molestus', child-minded players that probably cause the most anger, since it is the focus of their intentions in the first place. Again, this comes with a not-so-shocking coincidence, since the reason they approach online games is more often than not generated from a role-reversal that they are often subjected to in their normal lives. As opposed to elitists, trolls usually bring the anger to the table to begin with (though not always, having some occasions where a simple lack of empathy may actually generate joy), and focuses on this type of play to 'spread the wealth'.
Old-timers are your players whom have no interest in trolling, nor really consider themselves outside of the population, but more so have limited time to play when they actually can play, and have learned to play well over an extended period of time. They probably consist of most of the population, trolls be behind them by a chasm, elitists and noobs being a bit further behind. Their anger, unlike the others, is not without empathy, and can be diffused quickly, though that generally doesn't make the sting any less initially. Here the sense of entitlement comes into play more than the others, simply because they have limited time, and they feel that time is a precious commodity to enjoy the game. They work hard for their limited opportunities to play, and the pitfalls of newer players aren't factored into that (though generally, I believe they recognize the possibility, but base their chances hope it won't happen). This is a frustration-based fear that isn't as direct, but more coincidental and definitely vaster in quantity.
So what am I saying? The anger based in mmos can be quantified more easily I believe than in an fps, mainly because the sources are much more recognizable. Everyone gets angry at games, that's part of being human; however, I believe mmos have more ways and openings for such a thing (i.e., elitists, trolls, and old-timers). FPSers are opportunity games, that can be played and put down, while MMOs are a basis of entire lives outside of the real world.
In short, my vote goes to MMOs.

Posted: Aug 5th 2011 1:33PM Valkenr said

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Yes MMO players are angrier.

Why? every developer feels they don't have to put the level of polish on the game that every other genera gets. I have never lasted more than 3 months in an MMO, because no MMO has released a polished and balanced game, I'll occasionally go back to a game, but it's never more than a month, because all in all, the mindset of the developers hasn't changed.

I'm hoping SWTOR will break the cycle. I heard about that game back in 2008 when warhammer died(month 3) and it was already in development. The only thing i hope they do is test every part of the game in large scale open beta, all these games come out and only allow the first 1/3 or 1/2 of the leveling to be tested and guess what? there are numerous problems after the mass-tested portion. I just cross my fingers and hope EA doesn't drop the ball, like they did with warhammer. If you are not willing and able to stay in beta until the product is Polished to the release quality of a non-update-able console game.... You game has no chance with the MMO community.

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