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Reader Comments (84)

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 3:39PM Oskari said

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@Fakeassname

Ironic coming from someone who can't seem to capitalize his sentences and has questionable grammar at best.

See, no one likes the grammar police.
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Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 4:13PM Fakeassname said

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@Oskari

I have disgraphia. for medical reasons I find it virtually impossible to spell correctly, without mechanical assistance (spellcheck) I am virtually disabled when it comes to communicating in written form; as a result I end up exerting in inordinate amount of energy just getting my words out in a legible enough fashion that spellcheck can take a guess at what I am attempting to say and offer me some possible solutions that I from then pick the correct word I was attempting to type (I do know how to spell, and can recognize the correct version when I see it, it's on the reproduction of the word from withing my own mind that I have the problem).

forgive me if I don't always capitalize correctly

with that said I usually refrain from taking an issue with others, unless they are being an ass (which this guy was) and then I get snarky, even then I was trying to be a constructive jerk because he really did seem to be honestly mistaken on the correct term more than just reusing the wrong word he hastily pulled from the spellcheck list.

since your so good at ABCs; this is a A-B conversation between two illiterate jackasses, "C" your way out of it.
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Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 4:18PM Fakeassname said

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@Fakeassname

"word from withing my own mind"

"within"

the spellcheck crutch doesn't always work because at times I spit out a correct word incorrectly. I always proof read but it's hard to pick up on details inside these text boxes because the font size is roughly 2/3 of what I need it to be without squinting ... which hurts on this overly bright background.
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Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 4:35PM Oskari said

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@Fakeassname

If you have medical issues, then maybe you should be more careful when helping others and not intentionally act as a "constructive jerk". Everyone is fighting their own battles, though you were quick to jump on someone else's mistakes while asking for understanding or your own.
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Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 3:32PM Fakeassname said

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I assume you are talking about he likes of the "F2P lynch mob" and the "Burn anything FFXIV related, for it is diseased" types of people?

that's easy .... Politics.

*warning* 787 word wall of text incoming: TL;DR = being an ass about issues of preference is bad, complaining about issues that span the market is ok.

they see what ever it is that they are attacking as as a threat to whatever their personal preference is. in that light it's not so surprising that MMO bashing is quite allot like gay bashing; although I do admit that there is probably quite a bit less closet cases denying their own impulses when it comes to the MMO bashing. Everyone has got a Political agenda in assaulting what they view as an intrusion on their values.

for my own point of view I rarely attack something for artistic or gameplay value, my attacks tend to focus on what I view as negative trends that overflow the product in question; I personally couldn't care less that WoW has got depth-LESS game play and lets just call it "economical" visuals played off as stylized art ... I do care when other developers point to WoW's subscription numbers as justification for mimicking WoW's "values" that I find objectionable.

WoW is not popular because it is a good MMO, WoW is popular because it has a good community ... 5 years ago it was a good MMO, but that is no longer the case because the market has been progressively evolving while WoW has steadily devolved into a more simplistic game. Building WoW clones is not about bringing down the king, it's about cheaply piggy backing on a ready made design structure instead of exerting the effort of developing a unique system. I could attack each WoW clone in turn, because that is my real issue (not WoW's existence), but it is simply more efficient to attack the mold form which they are cast because it in turn attacks them all at once.

To balance the scales, I do find little to complain about with the F2P side of things, even though many of the those titles can't even measure up to WoW's excessively low standard. that's because the damned things aren't being re-sold for $60 every year or so, and aren't charging a subscription fee on top of that ... they get to be cheap because they are "cheap."

however no one screams louder than me when it comes to P2W scam shops shilling gamble boxes after pulling a bait and switch of presenting a highly accessible title with a highly optional cash shop that offers many beneficial items: into to a constrictive experience that suddenly mandates those "beneficial" items as a basic requirement for advancement in the title. That shit don't fly with me because it's unfair to the players after letting them gain an emotional attachment to something, in that regard I look at P2P as being superior because they are up front with what you are getting from day one; take it or leave it.

some will say "live and let live" if you don't like something then don't play it ... well I tried that when MMOs first came out, and since there were not enough dissenting opinions the god damned things ran the CRPG market straight into the ground and I've had to adapt in order to find a decent RPG experience. So yes, I know what happens when negative elements go unchecked. It's funny how EA is shilling TORs story element so heavily, 12 years ago having a detailed narrative and highly detailed NPCs was a baseline feature that no one even bothered to make an issue about: the combination of Ultima 7 and the serpent isle kept me exclusively preoccupied for roughly 2.5 years, vs the fact that so far there have been only 2 MMOs that kept my attention for more than 6 months (neither of them lasted a full year).

cheap ass production values and exploitative revenue schemes will sap what little salvageable RPG enjoyment can be found in the current market, so I bitch, and I bitch, and I bitch because I see dissenting about these sort of things as hopefully resulting in a beneficial experience for everyone; no matter the preference for casual vs hardcore, Chibi vs gritty, or F2P vs B2P. All those issues are preference related, not quality related. The F2P format is not inherently bad simply because it can (and has been on numerous occasions) set up in an abusive manner, same way that not all subscription based titles are evil despite many being just as exploitative in charging people a monthly fee for a title that is simply functionless without the support of other (paying) players (so why pay the company when 90% of the game comes from the contribution of the players).

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 4:34PM real65rcncom said

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@Ren54

LMAO!

He found a new home at mmorpg.com which in my opinion, is a perfect match between the two of them.

A troll for a trollsite run by GM trolls.

On topic: I usually have plenty of leeway for games (played War, Vanguard, Dcuo, ffxiv, etc) so I've seen plenty of fail but haven't really thought much about the company 'deserving' the scorn from jilted players much. Most people do move on or understand a game did their best.

One thing about a game like RiFT though.. when a company intentionally pumps up the volume and starts bragging about all the things it's going to do, and then turns out to be average.. I don't blame people for rubbing their noses in it. Humility as well as professionalism should accompany one another. All those "we arent in Azeroth anymore' ads invited clear comparisions to WoW. They were saying their game was better over and over everyday on television til your eyes bled.

Then when people played it and saw nothing new or just slighty interesing, fans went on the defensive saying 'dont compare it to WoW'. You can't have it both ways.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 4:47PM real65rcncom said

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A lot of times, the fans of said game being scathed ends up helping to add to the scorn.

When someone is constructive about a game, and the replies are almost to a man "Go back to WoW", that tends to set people off in the opposite directions. Then you see the 'normal fans' of a game's forum only tending to reply to people who criticize but you can count on one hand the times people will actually tell their fellow fans to 'shut up' with that type of antagonistic talk.

It's easier for them to side with a verifiable idiot who likes the same game they do (so they say nothing to their bad behavior) than to point out the poster has good points about criticism and deserves to have their own opinion.

This tends to make people feel it's a 'Us vs Them' attitude among fans of a game when talking on forums that starts to play out, so then they feel they have to singlehandly defend only against the bad things said, but rarely address the childish behavior in their own camps.

Pretty sure we've seen all this a lot. Even on some forums, you see Mods and GMs allowing people who kiss their butt more space in what they want to say and tend to shut down the reasonable critics, or move their posts to some off-forum where they go to die.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 5:01PM Palebane said

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It's not a big surprise that folks who have been a "fan" of the genre for a large chunk of their lives are disappointed by what the games have become, compared to what they could have been by now.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 5:16PM Lenn said

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@real65rcncom PM's been on mmorpg.com for a long time, proudly trolling anyone who claims to dislike Rift.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 5:25PM MassiveMMOGamer said

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The propoganda germ runs deep in this one......

Fail Strategy is fail

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 6:09PM Gaugamela said

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@real65rcncom

Well I would classify you as a WoW insecure advocate then. :P

What those ads from Rift accomplished was to pull the "insecure advocate" trolls (according to Justin).
Rift does have some nice features that aren't present in WoW and it is polished to a comparable level even if the world is much smaller. And no, they weren't saying their game was better. Just that it wasn't WoW.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 6:15PM Seldra said

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Having played games and being part of the gaming community I've learned to simply not let my emotions dictate my opinions on a game. I've made the mistake in the past of either being overly enthusiastic or cynical about a game and that clouds facts. May not be the most entertaining and exciting way to approach things but I find it practical.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 6:27PM Jenks said

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I find negative feedback far more useful than positive feedback. If I'm shopping for something on Amazon, I go straight to the 2 and 3 star reviews.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 6:49PM (Unverified) said

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It's easier to hate on something than it is to like it. If you have nothing but negative things to say, you're bulletproof. You have absolutely no emotional investment, you open yourself up to no ridicule. If something fails, good, because it sucked anyway -- right?

You learned this behavior in elementary school, the first time you told that special someone you "liked them" and were shot down in flames. Never again, you cried!

So it's not romance now, it's video games. But the principle is the same.

Before I get relentlessly flamed, let me hasten to say that not EVERY critical poster in a game's forum is wrong. Some complaint messages are coherent, well thought out, and deliver this without insulting anyone on a personal level. Those are -NOT- what I'm talking about.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 7:15PM Harley Dude said

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Some games and dev houses just deserve to fail, like ones that charge AAA rates for alpha quality games with cash shops. They need to fail so other devs see that they won't be rewarded for the same behavior.

It's really not that complicated.

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 8:42PM happyfish said

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I enjoy the self-loathing addicts the most, the ones that preface every negative statement with their qualifications of 10 million man hours spent doing everything in the game (Which they hated every minute of apparently. Example, "I have every class maxed to level 80, and I can tell you this game sucks!" Oh it does? Thanks for your exhaustive research!

Posted: Aug 2nd 2011 10:03PM Cider said

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Very good artical sir.

Posted: Aug 3rd 2011 5:59AM theinternetman said

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Hey I think I might have an entire article directed toward me! If you write about bad MMOs I will explain why they're bad and why no one should touch them for the good of your readers so they don't waste their time/bandwidth/HDD life. Stop posting bad generic grindfest MMOs that give you funding to report on them, thanks.

There is a ton of good content on massively (I'm looking at reports on Wurm, DAOC, Earthrise, Dawntide, etc.) but we don't need oodles of generic, completely void of anything interesting, MMO-clones. Eden Eternal would be a good example of an MMO that doesn't reinvent the wheel but does what it does very well and isn't what I'm disparaging.

Posted: Aug 3rd 2011 10:03AM Sharuk said

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Great article.

Posted: Aug 3rd 2011 5:59PM mysecretid said

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Forgot to say earlier, Thanks for the article, Justin. What you said needed to be said, even if it changes nothing.

I find it hilarious, for example, that some of the worst trolls Massively has operating right now are busily trying to align themselves with the "we only complain because we care about the future of gaming" faction.

Never mind that the deeds and the words don't match. Everybody's a hero in their own mind.

Anyway, thanks again for a very welcome article.

Cheers,

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