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Reader Comments (102)

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 4:06AM Dirame said

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@Jeromai

I believe it was said that GW2 has the pinging and the scribbling but you wont be able to see monsters on you radar. Meaning no red dots. Although Rangers can bring the red dots up by using an ability called "tracking". This might work for a group but I'm not sure about that.
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Posted: Jul 5th 2011 1:24AM Jade Effect said

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I wonder if Rubi actually played Guild Wars. Elementalists are not glass cannons. It all boils down to the 8 skills you're bringing.

That said, I can't say I'm a fan of this everyone-can-do-everything Guild Wars 2 design. Reminds me too much of Guild Wars. Nobody knows or cares what the other players' build is. No coordination, just run from one bunch of mob to another zerg style.

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 8:14AM Rubi said

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@Jade Effect "I wonder if Rubi actually played Guild Wars."

Don't read a world of meaning into an offhand, joking comment. Readers familiar with my work know that my GW1 main is an ele and it's absolutely my favorite class. I've been playing her for 4+ years and love it.
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Posted: Jul 5th 2011 3:29AM Dirame said

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@Puremallace

http://www.arena.net/blog/pax-east-preview-izzy-on-attributes-and-iteration

Power—increased attack damage.
Precision—increased critical strike chance.
Vitality—increased health.
Toughness—increased defense/armor.

Those are the attributes you'll see on armour in GW2.

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 5:01AM Graill440 said

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I know the devs are loathe to do this for many reasons, BUT.........the want of the many, we gamers, verse what the devs want should override the latter, like making dungeons (or anything for that matter) scalable to 1 or 100 (or say 50 for more realistic framerates). You want to go in alone, then do it, want to take 20 friends, then do it........whats the problem other than time and money devs? You want social, that one thing would give new meaning to how folks are catered to...or is it we cater to you devs? Sometimes i forget. (laugh)

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 5:06AM Graill440 said

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@Graill440

Nice to see the confirmation of the triangle being alive and well and contradicting the devs claims:

"First of all, every class isn't just a mishmash of "whatever you feel like playing." There are still defined roles".

Note: The rest of that sentence did not alter the context of what i pulled out of the OP's piece.
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Posted: Jul 5th 2011 9:17AM Dirame said

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@Graill440

It didn't alter the context but you are altering the meaning. And the devs never said there wasn't a triangle, they just said they didn't have the OLD triangle.

As said in their Healing and Death article;
"Instead of the traditional trinity, every Guild Wars 2 profession is self reliant--not only can they all help each other by reviving in combat, but all professions have ways to build their characters differently to make them more versatile for group play."

"Ultimately, DPS/heal/tank just didn't cut it in our book...er, game. Our players demand more from Guild Wars 2 and we intend to deliver on that demand instead of delivering more of the same. "

"You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control, but we prefer to think of them as the variety of elements that create a diverse and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounter we might throw their way."
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

They said no TRADITIONAL trinity. Please get it right.
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Posted: Jul 5th 2011 10:52AM Cyclone Jack said

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@Graill440

The idea of a full scalable instance is interesting, and one that I could support. I think the issue here is making something that is open enough to hold the players, but not be completely barren for the small groups. Most raids have spawns far apart due to the size of the group, which would become boring for the solo player. Regular dungeons are too small to fit more than 10 players into.

However, I think a good compromise would be to allow a dungeon to scale from 1-10 players and then have the 10+ player events be world events. With world events you can easily spawn in more enemies and give them more powerful abilities. With an instance, space is your biggest constraint.
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Posted: Jul 5th 2011 10:29AM Cyclone Jack said

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@Puremallace

1. Unknown. However, if looking at GW1 as an example, I would say they the gear itself will have very basic attributes that may be able to be enhanced through other means. So your armor is basically just armor, but you can add elemental resistance or more health or resistance to a status effect. Weapons have basic damage, and sometimes have some extra proc effects, and can be enhanced a bit as well.

2. I'm sure there are people who will attempt to min/max their character to fit a specific role, but those people will be less effective, overall, due to their lack of versatility.

3. Highly doubtful. The problem with your viewpoint here is that there are no "Tanks" in GW1 or GW2 because there is no real aggro meter. The Tank in GW1, you get a heavy armor class and try to body block enemies at choke points/corners/etc. As someone stated above, the party is the Tank because they all share the aggro.

As for your second part, each class has their own way of contributing support to their team, but requires changing something on the fly. The Warrior can change from a 2H to S&B and offer better protection to their nearby allies. The Elementalist can swap between attunements, as well as between sttaff and wand, to change their available skills. As Rubi stated, there will be a learning curve specifically because it does not conform to the old EQ mold.

4: Most definitely. With everyone able to do an occasional self heal, as well as everyone being able to change roles on the fly and revive an ally, I see the dev team having more freedom in designing challenges in a dungeon that doesn't revolve around the old trinity design.

This is a big point for me. As I played through dungeons in WoW and Rift, each encounter really felt the same, because you had your tank, healer and remaining DPS. Sure, they had varying mechanics, but for the most part if the Tank/Healer failed, the group failed. When you take away the tank and healer, the combat becomes more active and more varied. In that fact alone there will be more replayability in a GW2 dungeon than a standard trinity game. What I would do to see a GW2 dungeon that was like Classic BRD. :)

5. Unknown. It may be that this isn't the game for them.

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 11:18AM Irem said

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@Puremallace
There is healing. You heal yourself.

The fact that you can't grasp this doesn't come from the game mechanics not making any sense. They make perfect sense to anyone who actually bothers to read up on them. You aren't bothering to read up on them, so naturally you're confused.

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 11:52AM Tom in VA said

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GW2 sounds fun, but I will greatly miss the Heroes/henchmen of GW1, who were unfailingly ready to go, cooperative, patient, nonjudgmental, and polite and who -- frankly -- provided a welcome much-needed respite from standard PUGs.

Rubi alludes to the problem of too many players wanting to run a dungeon together, but what about when you have too few? In the GW1 days of yore, this was never a problem, since you'd just grab a few heroes and ... play. Now, of course, you must PUG/LFG till you meet the requisite number of players, just like in WoW and all the other standard-fare run-of-the-mill MMOs. Yuk. It's a big step backward in an otherwise innovative and forward-looking game.

ArenaNet, I'd happily pay extra for a GW2 "bonus pack" containing, say, four customizable heroes to use in the dungeons.

It'd be interesting to me (and very telling) if ArenaNet made such an option available as an MT. I bet it would be hugely lucrative for them and not "game-breaking" since the only people buying this feature would be people (like me) who won't be grouping much anyway.

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 2:20PM Irem said

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@Tom in VA
I'm usually totally allergic to grouping, and I sympathize with the desire to have something like this, but I think it would cause a riot in GW2. Unlike GW1, the dungeons in GW2 reward specific armor and weapon skins that are sort of "I did it" trophies, and I think it'd be very hard to make heroes/henchmen that weren't either completely useless or entirely broken with the GW2 combat system.
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Posted: Jul 5th 2011 12:00PM Cyclone Jack said

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@Puremallace

It may take away Instanced raiding, but it will allow them to bring back world Raiding. To me, this is a huge boon. I always wanted to get the gear, but the repeated run of the same thing over and over always burned me out on the game. Same enemies in the same spot every time, using the same strategies for every boss, and having to actually schedule them was a real pain as well. Oh no, MT sick, spam chat for an hour (and hope you get lucky) or try again next week.

With a system like GW2 bringing the raids back into the world allows for a more varied number of players to join in and allows each one to play out just a little bit different. It keeps the experience fresh (in theory of course, we won't know for sure until we play it for the 40th time), and allows you to participate when you want to, not on a pre-set schedule.

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 12:17PM Cyclone Jack said

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@Puremallace

That's the thing, not one person will have aggro. Look at The Shatterer with giant cleaves, foot stomps and breath attacks. A number of players are going to get hit with every attack, requiring players to pay attention to their nearby allies. Drop some Glyphs on the ground, place up some protective barriers, use abilities that weaken it, go into S&B mode to protect nearby allies, etc. The players will also need to be moving out of the way of these attacks whenever possible. If an ally falls, you need to ask if you can take the chance to go revive them or not. It is more a group effort and if someone falls you can still recover or continue on without them.

In a Trinity game, the Tank would get up front and spam aggro abilities, while everyone else gets on the side and spams attacks and heals. Sometimes you need to swap Tanks in mid battle. If the Tank or Healer dies or messes up, that's game, try again.

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 12:41PM (Unverified) said

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I haven't read through everything, so forgive me if I restate.

In hoping you can take 15-20 of your guildies into a dungeon, you go against the whole concept of a dungeon. They are cramped, dark places, many times being caves or hallways. Except for maybe a few great halls here and there, they aren't supposed to be conducive to a large group.

This was the tradition since DnD, but, thanks to Warcrap, we've gotten used to it the other way around, where you need an army to get through it. To me, that isn't a dungeon. That's an instanced battlefield.

There will be plenty of topside areas where you can take a bunch of guildies and enjoy a huge battle. Dungeons, however, should not be on that list.

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 1:43PM DevilSei said

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@(Unverified)

I'm going to assume you mean "Warcraft" with the completely intelligent play on words, but no... World of Warcraft did not start the idea of larger grouped raids.

Also, would you like to try and run a DnD session with 15+ people? No. Tradition it isn't, its called convenience because nobody is going to want to try and get that many people into a cramped dungeon basement.
/end-obligatory-dnd-basement-joke.


Besides "Warcrap" as you called it, has plenty of 5-man dungeons in it as well. The raids don't take place in the same-sized zones, besides Onyxia they are massive structures or sprawling outdoor areas.
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Posted: Jul 5th 2011 1:09PM Cyclone Jack said

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@Puremallace

It's enough to keep people entertained right now where the encounter is static and never changes. I don't see how making it a bit more dynamic would lessen the feel of the encounter. The dungeons will play very different if you have 5 warriors, all cloths, all med armor, all melee, all ranged, a balanced group, etc. That, to me, will give the dungeons more replayability than current trinity games.

The big world event raids will most likely play out a bit different as well. Granted, it would depend on the number and frequency of these world events and if they are on a pre-set schedule or something that the players need to do to trigger through the dynamic event system.

I can definitely see where you are coming from, and I have my own concerns that I will not know the answer to until I have a chance to sit down and play the game. But this is no different than any other game. I try not to pre-judge anything (except SoE games) and try to keep an open mind. As much as I'm tired of the trinity, I'm trying to keep an open view towards SWTOR, since the KOTOR games were just so damn good. :)

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 5:46PM (Unverified) said

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Not entirely sure if this is the best place to put this. Just wanted to say that you can buy the entire GW1 trilogy on steam for $15 for just today!

On topic: I find it hard to hate on anything I see coming out of ArenaNet on the 'nets. Just because I have loved GW since the very beginning and have nothing but blind faith in AreaNet's abilities. So, rather than look for something wrong with what they're doing, I'm going to wait until I get my hands on it. I'm sure I'll love whatever they make in any case since I'm just a rabid mouth-frothing ArenaNet fan!

Posted: Jul 6th 2011 12:13AM (Unverified) said

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There's so much gushing here, I'm wondering how much ArenaNet is paying Rubi.

Posted: Jul 6th 2011 1:19AM (Unverified) said

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I really think the Elder Dragon fights (Endgame bosses hopefully, is what it seems like) will take more than just 5 people. So hopefully they do that.

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