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Reader Comments (102)

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:26PM The Ogre said

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Yay for PvE content that locks out people who prefer to socialize with other people instead of teaming with them. *spit*

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:39PM Randomessa said

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@The Ogre

Yeah, I mean, it's not like there are 1500+ dynamic events all over the GW2 world where unlimited people can play alongside each other without having to team up!
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:42PM Genkides said

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@The Ogre
Can you clarify that? Who is locked out? The players all playing together? or the Party? and How does it lock someone out? All DE's are avaible for everyone.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 3:29PM jealouspirate said

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@The Ogre

What exactly are you talking about? I really don't understand your comment. The main feature of Guild Wars 2 is the Dynamic Events, which are specifically designed to bring players together in unlimited numbers and do cool stuff. The entire game is designed from the ground up to prevent griefing, encourage grouping and to make people always be happy when another player is around. The game really goes out of its way to produce positive interactions between players.

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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:29PM OctoberJade said

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@Puremallace

Gear has stat bonuses, yes, +10 toughness and the like. We have also seen evidence of proc effects such as 50% chance to cast Spell XYZ upon critical.

I really think you're missing the point with regard to min/maxing. Everyone who has reported back from actually playing the game has talked about how maintaining static roles is an ineffective way to play. The combat is designed to be more fluid, with each person responding to changes in the battle as they arise. Saying, "I'm going to tank and only tank, and you will be our support guy" is setting up for failure.

Story mode in each dungeon is not supposed to be overly difficult. It's there to progress the player through the plot. Explorable mode, on the other hand, is apparently quite brutal. At the recent fan day event, a group completed the Ascalon dungeon in I believe four hours. Previously, not even a dev team had been able to achieve that without cheating to add a sixth member.

I don't know what you mean by progression guilds.

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:38PM Irem said

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@Puremallace
Pure, you can't tank or heal in the traditional sense. I'm not sure how anyone can make this clearer. There is no way to do it. The game mechanics do not support it.

You can stack Toughness or Vitality all day and stand there in front of a monster trying to soak damage, but you will eat floor.

You can cast as many "healing" spells as you like, but all they'll do is give your teammates regen. Everyone has a self-heal that they're responsible for using when they're sitting at low health.

The challenge comes in when everybody has to know their class and the limits of what it can do in order to use everything at their disposal. According to all the reports from people who've actually played the dungeons, if you don't communicate and you're not willing to use everything at your disposal, you're likely to wipe. And, once again, if progression guilds want to turn up their noses at GW2, they're free to do so. That's actually a very small number of people to worry about.

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:40PM Randomessa said

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@Puremallace

There is no progression raiding in GW2.

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:51PM Sente said

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@Puremallace

I would suggest you go to the GW2 web site and read the articles about combat there and think through what they are writing. Learn how Guild Wars combat works will also help understanding, although GW2 is a bit different.

Tanking is just a subset of the larger concept of control and without that dedicated typecasting it can open up to a more varied experience. Same with healing really. Play an MMO with more emphasis on and mroe varied support and control abilities and it might not be such a stretch of imagination to see what they are trying to do.

But yes, there will certainly be people who do not like it and will feel more comfortable within the constraints of the trinity.

Only first-hand experience will tell for sure.


Posted: Jul 4th 2011 6:24PM nagennif said

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Oh I agree it's a superior system (and one I've been waiting for for a long time). I just think roles will appear. And I believe certain builds and classes will be assigned by portions of the population to premade roles, because that always happens.

What other games don't give you though, is a path for more creative people, who want to play around with builds and their friends, to get through dungeons. I welcome the destruction of the "holy trinity" as much as anyone I know. I think Guild Wars 2 will be awesome.

And I never doubted that Arena Net could deliver an alternate, superior system that didn't involve having to have a tank with you at all times. Getting rid of the necessity for a healer was just an added bonus for me.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 3:07PM Ordegar said

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Rubi, it is clear to me from reading the comments to this article that all but very studious fans do not really know what GW2 is. It is called an mmo, and seems to have a fantasy setting, so people think it's just another iteration of the genre.

"This is not your father's mmo", is what I like to say. But even still, so many things are different in Guild Wars 2 that it's not really even the same genre in a sense. Just the fact that there is not ally targeting, and that tank, heal, dps roles have been stirred up and spread out among all the classes and morphed into support, control and damage, has transformed GW2 into something so unique that it doesn't compare directly with traditional mmo games.

I think you would do Massively readers, and Guild Wars 2, a great service if you wrote an in-depth article detailing the completely different way of looking at mmo gameplay that ArenaNet has developed in this game.

People just don't get it. I even see comments to youtube videos that indicate that people just think it's yet-another-mmo (yammo?) because they don't see in the videos what really sets GW2 apart. It's frustrating.

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 3:33PM DevilSei said

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@Ordegar
That's pretty much human nature though.
People who don't get it but want to will, and I'll repeat that, WILL, learn it. People who don't get it because they don't want to, will never "get it" unless they change their minds.
And people who will never bother trying to get it because it ruins their fun of spitting on the game, well... you get the point.

An article will not change the latter 2, and will only make the first learn a bit quicker.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:04PM DevilSei said

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@Puremallace

Considering I'm a "Guild Wars 2" Fan, and also was at least a World of Warcraft fan (I'm still dabbling with the game, seeing how early zones have changed), I very much believe the two can co-exist, and will because the payment model is oriented in such a way.

As much as you like to claim that, you are rather guilty of doing it as well, almost vehemently so. I'm not trying to start some huge flame war against you, I'm just saying what I've observed.

And true that Guild Wars was never a MMO in the truest sense of the word, it's damn near close. I'd argue that the hub-based system it uses was designed to allow both fans of MMOs and more solo-minded players a viable chance at progressing through the game how they see fit using the hero/henchmen system to fill in whatever gaps might show up.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:15PM (Unverified) said

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@Ordegar: To be fair, people don't "get it" because MMO's that deviate from player == role have typically ended up not as successful as the player == role paradigm and I suspect there is a reason for that. When I saw that there would be no tanks and no healers (and the assumption is that the tank and healer role is distributed out among the group), I was immediately put off because what I like to do in mmo's is tank while simultaneously getting healed and yelling at the dps. I feel like thats a warriors role because I see warriors as the guys that get the shit beaten out of them. I'm willing to bend my concept of what a warrior is, because that really should be relative to every game, but the idea of players all having a little bit of each role sounds like chaos to me. Encounters under the tank/heal/dps/cc paradigm have a certain feel to them, a sense of control because each player knows what their role is and what is needed of them to beat an encounter. We KNOW that those encounters are tuned for us to be successful, and when something goes wrong we can fairly easily eyeball the problem, correct it, and progress through content. But now, lets look at GW2 where everyone will be running around doing a little bit of everything... how do you tune something like that? If it's tuned to assume that everyone is communicating perfectly and knows their class perfectly and knows how to switch roles perfectly, then how do players sort through a failed attempt when it's so dynamic. Conversely, if it's tuned to assume each player knows only a little about their class and a little about what other classes can do such that any group can waltz through content easily, then where is the real reward for the players that have mastered their class and knowledge of the game over the players that are mostly "meh"? Those "expert" players will never matter because you won't need to have experts when you can faceroll everything.

For a MMO to be successful, you need to have a community of players that are experts, and it will be impossible to become an expert if when you review failed attempts at content you can't really have enough information to correct what caused you to fail.

I'm just sayin, GW2 is walking a tight rope here, and it's going to make or break where it fits in in the bigger marketplace. With WoW subs down, that fancy new Star Wars MMO on the rise and games like RIFT and other F2P MMO's fracturing the MMO market up, GW2 could easily come along and get snag a huge permanent player base if they play their cards right. Or they could trip up on the simple things like not letting players jump, easily inspect other players gear, free look with the left mouse button and/or move while autoattacking.

I'm hoping for the best though!
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:16PM Irem said

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@Puremallace
Actually, I think a good part of your confusion stems from the fact that it's much more fun for you to willfully misunderstand the way things work and jump to wild conclusions. You're not actually curious about the game; you're just trashing it under the guise of concern trolling because some immature GW2 fans said something negative about RIFT and you've decided it's your solemn duty to be just as much of an annoyance.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:19PM DevilSei said

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@Irem
"And people who will never bother trying to get it because it ruins their fun of spitting on the game, well... you get the point."

*cough*
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:27PM Irem said

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@(Unverified)
Players can jump in GW2. ;D

"Chaos" in the encounters is actually by design, and that's a term they've used to describe what they were going for in fights. They've said that they don't actually want it to be structured to the point where you always know exactly what you're going to be doing. I think that's good, because while being able to do that is efficient, I don't find it particularly fun. It is, however, going to drive the spreadsheet folks crazy.

From what we've been hearing, communication is key to doing harder fights, and rushing in without discussing strategy is a recipe for an asskicking. You can still see what went wrong and how to fix it ("I could have run in to raise Soandso here, and if we'd all concentrated on Whatsit B we'd have won"), and according to the devs, the harder encounters -are- tuned with the expectation that you know your class very, very well.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:28PM Irem said

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@DevilSei
If he hears it enough times, maybe it'll sink in. :P
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:45PM DevilSei said

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@Irem
I was just trying to outright flame anyone and start anything is all, no need to have him type more, and no need to have more thumbs-downs thrown out =P

And while chaos can be fun, if it isn't handled well it could become a major pain in the ass. Hell, the "PvP"-ish boss fight in the Argent Tournament is proof of that. I have never seen a fight that has been as divisive as that in whether people liked it or hated it, with me squarely on the "hating" side.
Of course though, WoW is a strictly "One-use" only class-based affair (generally speaking, classes have been allowed to use their other roles more as the game ages for the most part), and the fight itself was bogged down by nerfed AoE and bosses who used threat but didn't adhere to it, and well... for a development team that feels like its increasingly letting its work fall to less-experienced people... yea I hated the hell out of that fight when we tried it, bane of my existence since all the other fights we generally one-shotted through them.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:46PM DevilSei said

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@DevilSei
trying to NOT outright flame anyone, not "trying to flame anyone".
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:51PM Ordegar said

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@DevilSei

Ok, when I say people don't "get it" I mean that they are uninformed. I don't have an issue with people not liking the game who understand what it is; not everyone will like it. I am just pushing for more clarity and information.

Personal story and dynamic content is not the significant parts of the game, in my opinion, but it seems that is all most people know about it, mostly because that is what ArenaNet is touting the most.
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