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Reader Comments (102)

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 3:49PM Lenn said

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@(Unverified) Yes, because quite clearly the only way one can play with others in an MMO is by raiding. I mean, WoW does it, so that must mean it's the way to go, right?
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:02PM GryphonStalker said

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@(Unverified) I absolutely agree that the best part of an MMO is playing with other players but I highly disagree that we have to be on this ridiculous notion of a gear treadmill with 10+ people to do it.

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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:19PM (Unverified) said

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@jealouspirate: The game should have raiding even if its not something you like to do. the same with pvp
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:25PM (Unverified) said

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@Lenn :reread my comment because you injected a lot of hate and misunderstanding into it. Just because you don't like raiding doesn't mean it wouldn't be a huge draw to others, and personally it would make or break the game for me because its what i like to do.

Just because you don't like one of these three MMO STAPLES ( raiding, pvp or dungeons) doesn't mean it should be included. If they cover these three areas then guess what, there will be a much larger community for everyone to play with. So take a chill pill please
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:27PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified) *shouldn't*
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:34PM Randomessa said

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@(Unverified)

"If they cover these three areas then guess what, there will be a much larger community for everyone to play with."

I disagree with this statement. If GW2 included a gear progression treadmill via raiding, or, say, open PvP, they would lose a chunk of their current audience, merely trading some fans for others, not expanding their audience greatly.

The reason is that these features would clash greatly with ANet's underlying philosophy behind the game, including their anti-grind stance which always hews to the standard that skill > time and that gearing and skilling up is always relatively quick and progresses horizontally rather than vertically. See also their anti-griefing stance as regards open PvP.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:37PM Irem said

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@(Unverified)
They'll implement raiding if they think it's good for the game. The reason they haven't implemented raiding is because having it just because MMOs are expected to have it -isn't- good for the game.

It may be a huge draw for you, but part of what they're trying to do is move away from level cap as the be-all, end-all of content. In games with a raid-centric endgame, the assumption is usually that raiding is the pinnacle of content, the thing you're doing everything else to try to get to. I've seen raiders in those games get very upset when content is designed for non-raiders, calling anything that isn't for them useless fluff. When content in Guild Wars 2 is added to the dynamic event system, or to the personal story, or to the 5-man dungeons, would raiders be angry? In a game where the high-level content doesn't revolve around raiding, with a steady flow of new encounters, would a hardcore raider even keep playing?
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:42PM jealouspirate said

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@(Unverified)

"The game should have raiding even if its not something you like to do. the same with pvp "

Why, exactly? Arenanet decided that they wanted their focus to be on Dynamic Events in the open with, with the emphasis NOT being on a gear treadmill doing the same scripted encounters over and over again. They saw something wrong with that and are trying to move away from it. They also have a clear vision for their game and will not compromise it by adding a ton of features that every other MMO has just for their own sake. That's called integrity,

Contrary to popular belief, raiding isn't the main attraction for a lot of MMO players. WoW exploded into the most popular MMO ever to exist with many million players, and up to the end of BC only about 5% of those millions ever raided... and that's in a game where raiding *was* a big focus. Seems to be there's a lot of people out there who would love a game designed without raiding in mind.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 5:11PM (Unverified) said

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@jealouspirate: and what were the stats during Wotlk when raiding was the most accessible? /who ICC blew up the chat box! talking about raiding in wow during a time when it was almost the least accessible (naxx from vanilla takes that cake) wreaks of strawmen. ICC10 normal was mostly a very long heroic instance, and hardmodes are where that 5% (if thats even true) number moved to. Nowhere did I suggest raiding in GW2 ought be prohibitive to the playerbase, and if ANET is worried about gear progression as a way of ruining the game, then they could easily make ALL of their content give out static, equivalent rewards exchangeable for cosmetic vanity items. The reward doesn't have to be the reason to run the content.

MMO's without raiding, PvP and dungeons will always be less attractive than those with. And the over all experience of being able to barely down a dragon or some huge elite beast in a group with 10 or more of your friends, and have it frapsed with only one person left standing, is a much better experience (and marketing tool) for the game, than if that content didn't exist.

and who said the raiding had to be static anyhow, you know they could work raiding into the game without ruining their vision, and make everyone happy right?
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 5:30PM jealouspirate said

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@(Unverified)

All I was trying to say with the WoW comparison was that the game had, and has, millions upon millions of players who don't raid, which shows that raiding isn't really a make-or-break feature for a lot of people.

Yes, raiding was very very popular in WotLK due to its accessibility, but the game was also designed around getting people to raid. The point is that you don't need raiding to have a successful, popular MMO.

"MMO's without raiding, PvP and dungeons will always be less attractive than those with"

I just don't think this statement holds up. There are people like me who have no interest in raiding. It turns me off, actually, if I know devs will be putting a huge amount of effort into raids. I'm not alone. There are also a ton of MMO players, on this site often, who have no interest whatsoever in PvP. An MMO without any PvP would probably appeal to a certain crowd.

Not sure what else to say, really. ANet does not plan to have traditional raiding in the game and that's that. Their focus is on their open dynamic world and they're focused on that goal. Just look at RIFT, which marketed itself on all this great open-world dynamic content. Now it's pushing out raids and people are upset because that's not what they game for and it's not the game's defining feature. Being all things to all people isn't necessarily a good thing, even if that means GW2 will be more of a niche product.

They will however have huge open-world bosses in Dynamic Events, if that makes a difference to you.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 5:43PM (Unverified) said

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@jealouspirate : For 50-60 bucks or whatever it will cost, they had me sold when I saw some of their earlier gameplay videos, and I think that will be the case for a lot of people. It will be interesting to see what the long term player retention is. It just seems like such a waste to have such a great set of combat systems / class / lore /bla bla bla and not push it to include raiding content. Or maybe the big world open bosses will be enough or comparable to raiding on some level. I'll revive this necro-thread sometime after the game launches with a response :-D
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 5:54PM Lenn said

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@(Unverified) No hate, nor misunderstanding. I think you're grossly underestimating how fed up a lot of MMO players are with the whole "raid or die" mentality so prevalent in many MMOs. I can just as easily turn your words around so they bite you on the ass: just because you like raiding, doesn't mean others do.

A game that offers a full experience without the raiding will have a player for life in me. And I dare say I'm not the only one who feels that way. Not by a long shot.
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Posted: Sep 8th 2011 5:38PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified)
The large semi-organized PUG "raids" will be accommodated through the huge DEs like taking down Tequatl. Dungeons in GW2 are for small highly organized groups. I suspect it'll be harder to crawl a dungeon on explore mode than people imagine. They are saying it will be very hard to accomplish.
I imagine 10+ member dungeons will go in later, but they aren't needed right on release.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:06PM Faction 3 said

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@Puremallace Jesus Christ, here we go again....

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:07PM (Unverified) said

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You are so biased Ruby.

You should warn people that articles written by you about GW2 are so baised and fangirly that they should be taken with a grain of salt.


You had a bit of objectivity in the past when it came to GW2 that people could read your articles and actually be informed but now with this amongst other things it has showed that you don't really care about any of the possible fault in GW2.

You might as well work as GW2 PR since i doubt any of the people they have can do a great job as you at making people overlook bad design decisions.

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 3:32PM jealouspirate said

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@(Unverified)

"You might as well work as GW2 PR since i doubt any of the people they have can do a great job as you at making people overlook bad design decisions."

What bad design decisions, exactly?
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:16PM (Unverified) said

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i dont understand what youre complaining about...you wanna run dungeons with more than 5 people at a time? that doesnt make any sense. dungeons arent really a place to socialize. thats what the rest of the open world and DE's are for. run the open world raids and DE's with your guildmates.

Posted: Jul 5th 2011 3:44AM Dirame said

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@(Unverified)

Seriously, the "I want to take all my guildmates on dungeons as well" is quite similar to saying "I want raids". I just don't understand it, especially when they've already created world events that don't have a party limit.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:19PM ArcherAvatar said

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"There's a big difference between hearing about something or seeing a demo of it and actually getting in there to experience it firsthand. You can read about a game all you want, but it's impossible to really know whether it'll work for you until you experience it in person." - Rubi

Truer words were never spoken...

"The downside is that I can see some people getting frustrated because there's a definitely learning curve here." - Rubi

Oh, there is gonna be a learning curve all right! And the simple truth is, some folks you've met in current MMOs are just not going to be up to the challenge.

GW2 will be presenting an interesting opportunity to players; you will be required to be flexible and active in your thinking... mobility and positioning will be key factors in success or failure... and thinking that you can rigidly adhere to "old" roles and play styles adopted from past games is a perfect formula for disappointment and frustration.

For some folks who currently play either MMOs or FPSes (yes... I think this game will attract players from both of those) the learning curve is going to be longer the more stuborn they are.
- Standing in one place is going to equal failure far too often.
- Thinking you're *just* DPS is going to equal failure far too often.
- A lack of situational awareness is going to equal failure far too often.

Bottom line; this is going to be much more active game than MMO vets are used to, and this is going to be a much more versatile and demanding game than FPS vets are used to. Players are going to have to use ALL of their character's abilities to be truly successful and "lazy" game play is going to turn into frustration for the folks who insist on perpetuating it from previous games.

At the same time that GW2 is making these demands on players, it's also providing an environment that will allow them some leeway and time to make the adjustment to it's style of play. GW2 is far more "co-op" than any previous co-op games. Other players are going to be in there with you, learning right next to you, and lending a helping hand. With large "ad-hoc" groups forming all the time in most areas of the game, and with the cooperation of characters being an actual *feature* of the game it will likely allow folks the assistance they need while they are still getting used to the new paradigm.

But make no mistake about it... this is NOT Sims with swords... this is NOT a "facebook" MMO... and if that's how you think you're going to play GW2 then I guarantee you are going to get frustrated.

The DEVs are not making comments about wanting "skill" to be a greater factor than "gear" in the game just for the heck of it... that means you're actually going to have to be able to use skills - lots of them - on the fly, and switch which ones you're using as the situation changes and demands different responses.

Players who can't execute a simple sequence of skills on the fly without hitting themselves in the forehead with the keyboard need not apply...

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 9:47PM Demuse said

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@ArcherAvatar
Many games that are now revered as ground-breaking classics, like Everquest, but also Doom or Starcraft or SimCity or Mario Bros, came with a new set of rules and skills that everyone had to figure out. Nobody knew what a "zerg rush" or a "rocket jump" was, or had any inkling of what a "tank" should or shouldn't do.

I find it totally depressing when I try a new game, MMO or not, and find I can skip the tutorial and leave the instruction manual in the box and not miss a beat.

One of the aspects of GW2 that excites me the most is the idea that I *wont* know exactly how to play the whole game while I'm still in the starter zone. I will actually have to learn my profession, and my foes, through trial and error and experience. Then I'll have to learn about all my allies, by watching what they can do. And I might even get the pleasure of watching someone else play my profession in a totally different way than me, blowing my mind and sparking ideas and opening up possibilities.
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