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Reader Comments (102)

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 12:17PM (Unverified) said

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Glad to see that the mechanics of dungeons have won you over Rubi, and to see that someone else shares my concerns over the social aspects of them, if for different reasons. I've previously run events in Guild Wars that ended up with 13 real people turning up, but that was no problem as we could divide into 2 teams and make up the numbers with heroes or henchmen.

With Guild Wars 2, that kind of flexibility is gone. If 5, 10, 15 people turn up, you're ok. But what happens when 7 arrive, or 11? Someone will be disappointed either at having to sit out, or take randoms to make up the numbers (which undermines the idea of a guild outing).

I'd love to see some difficult instanced content that was a little more flexible on the numbers aspect. For example, allowing 5-9 players, where the difficulty scaled so that taking 9 players didn't result in a drastically different time to complete the content to 5 players. They're doing it with the dynamic events - why not dungeons?

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 12:17PM slash beast said

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It worked fine with other MMOs. I'm not sure why this was even a worry to begin with for anyone.

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 12:25PM Genkides said

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Nice read Rubi! I like how it will be easy to get 5 people together to do a run. Even in guilds you can have multiple groups do a run, come out and dicuss how they did it. Even if a group is down one or two, hoping finding someone anyone will be easy and fast. Cant wait to try it at PAX, hope they have the dungeon demo for it!

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 12:54PM nagennif said

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I suspect roles will emerge as people learn the classes. They just won't be the same stale old roles.

Roles are inevitable as people figure out (and post) what works and what doesn't work. Some people are always going to look for builds online and some will want to make their own.

The bottom line is it's a misnomer to say there are no roles in Guild Wars 2. Say rather no defined roles exist yet.

I'm pretty sure in a year or two, there'll be builds for CC, interruption, protection and all sorts of stuff. It won't have to happen, but it will.

At least, though, the devs can be more creative in creating challenges not having to rely on a healer and tank.

And likewise the players can be more creative too, in how they approach dungeons.

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 1:14PM Irem said

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ArenaNet has always acknowledged that there are roles, but they call those roles support, control, and damage, and the combat system seems to support every class being able to use a bit of each of them at need. When you have that much flexibility, coming up with actual dedicated roles (whether they're tank/healer/DPS or otherwise) seems a bit counterproductive--on top of being hard to actually do with half the skillbar already set according to weapon choice and two of the optional slots dedicated to a self-heal and an elite. I'm sure people will come up with all kinds of things, but I think it's hard to say whether or not the metagame will drastically affect how the average person plays. Theorycrafters are always going to have fun theorycrafting, but the goal of actual min/maxing is efficiency, and if it's not efficient to use specialized builds, very few will.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:57PM Sean D said

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@nagennif

It may turn out that roles in a party, however they manifest, will be filled not by a player 's class, but by the player who best operates in a particular role, which is a very cool thing in my mind. We'll be choosing players, not classes. Joe may rock as a controller, but suck as a DPSer. Meg may excel as support and DPS, but not be so good at controlling. Joe's our controller, Meg's our support/DPS. It occurs in other MMOs to an extent - some players play the healer classes better than others - but groups, especially PUGs, are regularly satisfied with any healer, regardless of the healer player's capacity to play their class effectively.

It sounds like GW2 will allow for player ability to outshine class. With this in mind, I like the idea of a learning curve. A game gets boring when there isn't some way to differentiate between characters and players (other than equipment, for example, which tends to be a reflection not of player skill so much, but how much time a player has invested in their game).

I could be wrong. I haven't played the game.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 1:01PM Irem said

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Thank you for this. All of the reports coming out of the recent events are making me really, really excited for the combat system in GW2.

This also gives a good idea of how the classes work together without a dedicated tank or healer; a lot of people seem to be operating under the misconception that every class can -choose- whether to be tank, healer, or DPS, and then stick to that role and that role only throughout. I see a possible sticking point in that it looks like you'll really need to be familiar with all aspects of your class in order to do well, and there are going to be some players who won't want to reach for that party support or crowd control ability when it's needed (I'm having flashbacks to the "But stopping to lay traps will hurt my DPS!" mentality of WoW Burning Crusade instances).

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 1:10PM DevilSei said

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@Irem
Bah, traps are so vanilla maan, its all about the sheeping/turtling/frogging and the repents now!

To be fair though, there is people like that in any game, not just in WoW, and yes that does include Guild Wars!
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 1:33PM Irem said

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@DevilSei
I know there are people like that in any game, which is why I'm worried about it. ;) WoW was just the first example that came to mind, although god knows I had my share of run-ins with them in PSU ("Why should I have to bring scape dolls and trimates?? Don't we have a healer??" "Sorry, my buffs aren't leveled at all. :3 The only TECH I use is Megid~" "I just don't like traps so I didn't bring any. It's okay, my bullets freeze them sometimes").
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 1:06PM DevilSei said

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It's always easy to think the worst of anything until you get your hands on it. What I've always been more curious about is how viable any combination of classes in a given dungeon or situation. So far though, it sounds like oddball combinations are still effective, whether its a family of glass-cannons, or a bunch of warriors running rowdy in a cave (probably drunk as hell too).

And while it does suck that dungeons are one of the areas where entire guilds can't bring down the havoc on them NPC fools, there's still the dynamic events and 3-way PvP for sure. And they very well might release higher end "Elite" Dungeons for larger groups to do as well!

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 1:45PM (Unverified) said

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You are all mentioning in your posts on all the sites how some people switched to healing and acted as healers. Ok, good, class design is more loose now but you still need a dedicated healer, at least in a dungeon environment.
How about tanks? I played WoW for 5 years and if I konw one thing its there is always shortage of tanks. You will find healers, you will find dps, but you will sooner find a Dodo then a tank.
I only played GW for some time so I don't realy remember how things were, but in WoW you always needed tank and there was none.

So, the question is, do you need to have dedicated tank in dungeon environment?

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:44PM Ordegar said

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@(Unverified)

The point is that you DO NOT need a dedicated healer or tank in Guild Wars 2, even in a dungeon. Guild Wars 2 does not have healers or tanks; it has support, control and damage. What's the difference?

What "tanking" is in other mmos, in Guild Wars 2 is a group effort. It's not one dedicated character that takes all of the attention of a boss and mitigates most of the damage from said boss. Instead, the group works together to cripple, interrupt, slow, debuff. The group is the tank.

Likewise with healing. Every class has self healing, and the ability is always on your bar, so it is your responsibility to heal yourself when you can. Healing is also, like tanking, a group effort. Classes who have a support role can do a sort of aoe heal; we know that there is a sort of item that can be summoned that heals any allies who go near it, for example. Note that in Guild Wars 2 there is no ally targeting, so there will be nobody who "targets the 'tank' and spams heals".

It's all a completely different system than what we're used to in most mmos; and those who play Guild Wars 2 will have to get used to a different mindset. You have to think differently about situations than what you're used to. This is not your father's mmo.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 4:10PM Irem said

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@(Unverified)
Roles are situational. For example, if you have a skill that supplies healing on your bar and you see that your teammates are having a hard time keeping their health up, you should use that ability. If you see someone with low health getting smacked around, you should use an ability that either controls the enemy in some way, or stops it from damaging your teammate. If, however, you concentrate on doing only those two things, you'll spend most of your time in the dungeon being a great big paperweight.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 1:53PM (Unverified) said

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Call me crazy but I kinda miss the fact there won't be anything similar to WoW raids. Yes, there will be explorable versions of dungeons, but that is still only 5 players and everyone is saying equivalent to WoW heroics.
5 is a number that can be easily coordinated. Raids are chalenging because they demand teamwork of 10 or more people and near perfect execution.

Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:01PM Lenn said

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@(Unverified) You're crazy.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:11PM (Unverified) said

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@Lenn

I am. ^^

Sure I like good story, but I stay with game for its end-game content (raids) and GW2 seems very much in balance of casual players, witch is ok, and sure, I will play it and level all possible alts, but without some "real" endgame content there is not much fun.
Yes, argument about playing with friends, but as Rubi pointed out you have usualy more then 4 friends in game.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:45PM Tanek said

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@(Unverified) Given that part of the main story of GW2 involves dragons, I would not be surprised to see some kind of dungeon content later down the road that is for more than 5 players. If so, whether ANet will do it as a "traditional" raid or will have a bit of a twist to it should be interesting.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 2:54PM Irem said

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@(Unverified)
They've hinted that there will be events which require large, coordinated groups of people to win. They just won't be instanced. Dungeon groups are small because, as you said, part of the challenge of raiding is getting 10+ people together, and I dunno about you, but that's not the part I find to be a scream and a half.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 3:26PM jealouspirate said

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@(Unverified)

I have to say, I couldn't disagree more. I have no interest whatsoever in raiding and I'm so glad that GW2 isn't bowing down to raiding. If anyone wants traditional raiding there are already tons of games to choose from.
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Posted: Jul 4th 2011 3:40PM (Unverified) said

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@(Unverified) you're not crazy. GW2 will be missing out significantly if they don't include 10+ player highly coordinated content for endgame, with gear drops that are worth the extra effort (or rewards in general). The best part of an mmo is playing with other players, hence the multiplayer part.

They can do it, they really can and they should.
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