| Mail |
You might also like: WoW Insider, Joystiq, and more

Reader Comments (19)

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 1:08PM Laren said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I level to enjoy the story line, lore, and as a way to explore the world. Take any of those away from me, and I quickly find myself asking the same question... "why am I doing this??". That is why solo leveling works so well [for me]. I can, at my own pace, see the world. Throw in multi-player activities on the side, and now you have my monthly subscription... at least until end game.


Posted: Jun 25th 2011 1:19PM Fakeassname said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
*shrug*

both Final Fantasy online games have been (and I'm guessing any other ones we get down the road too will be as well) a lot like visiting lego land:

the greatest sandcastle themepark on earth.

as much as I like FFXIV, I can't help but to shake my fist in rage wishing for more ability to effect the game world (player housing/towns, creature taming, active PVP for territory controll, etc ...) or more narrative (story mission more frequent / longer side quest chains).

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 1:53PM ImperialPanda said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
Leveling in FFXI was fun. FFXI, as everyone knows, requries you to party to level. And playing with 5 other people was fun most of the time, compared to virtually all other MMOs where unless you're doing a raid or on an elite quest you're probably soloing.

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 2:17PM Fakeassname said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@ImperialPanda

see, that's one of the reasons I couldn't stand FFXI, but love FFXIV: mandatory parties.

shit is all good and whatnot when you can easily FIND people to party with, but when you have got an effective party range of like 5 levels (and if you go outside of that range the XP gets fucked for the whole party) combined with the population being split between 4 (in game) nations, across way too many servers, and multiple RL languages ....

the last time I logged into FFXI before canceling my subscription (on day 20 of the free trial) I read an entire book while waiting for the party I was in to pick up a forth member.
Reply

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 3:41PM myr said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Fakeassname

That's why they created level sync. Level range problem solved.
Reply

Posted: Jun 26th 2011 2:17AM ImperialPanda said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Fakeassname

I guess... some people have trouble finding PT, some people don't.
Reply

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 1:59PM pcgneurotic said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
This is why I like DDO, because the levels are far fewer, you know exactly what your reward is for gaining one, and you know that they're really a side-effect of your gaming rather than a purpose to it.

The irony is, D&D, and by extension DDO, is the only game(s) that has held on to that, where everyone else ever, has said, 'Oh levels, cool, let's have 60 of them in our game and make them progress mile-markers so the players know how they got in our game.

DDO on the other hand says, 'Sure, levels gate content, but most of our content is horizontal, so you can play your tits off and have tons of fun being Mr. Fantasy Swordsman doing hundreds of quests - and oh, levels are a cool extra thing that happen now and then too.'

Of course, levels in DDO also bring meaty character changes too - skills, feats, point distribution, new spells etc - not *just* a new number on your character sheet and the possibility of having an armoured donkey instead of just a donkey with a blanket.

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 2:00PM pcgneurotic said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@pcgneurotic

how *far* they got
Reply

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 2:34PM DarkWalker said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@pcgneurotic

I really loved DDO apart from one issue: hard to get respecs.

I got to level 2 and couldn't make a decision on how to level up, knowing that if I wanted to redo my choice, I would have to either start anew, wait for a respec item to drop in a raid, or pay real money for a respec.

So, I left DDO and went back to WoW. I still have my lv1 character ready to get to level 2 on that DDO account, and every time I actually log back to the game to take another look, I take a look at the character, remember why I never did level it, and log off.

Strange, I know, but that is me when playing games: I usually can't stand being unable to change my previous decisions. I mostly play RPGs by abusing cheats and the save-games to be able to try each and every branch and option, and if I can't do that in a given game, I most likely won't play it.

(Which is why, even though I'm most likely pre-ordering SW:TOR, it's quite unlikely I will actually level any character I actually intend to use before a couple months at least, when there should be complete guides available to most quests. Since I can't redo the quests with the same character, I will read everything and draw my character's path, including all quest choices from start to finish, before really playing the game.)
Reply

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 9:45PM Vazzaroth said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@pcgneurotic

DDO is one of my favorite MMO's because of all those reasons. It's one of the very few MMO's I found actually just fun to play. Being able to apply my depressingly comprehensive knowledge and experience with 3.5 ruleset is pretty appealing too...

@DarkWalker

You blew my mind. I never thought anyone would be that attached to respecs. I mean... I just make a new character when I want a change. I think I respecced maybe once in WoW when I played ages ago. I mean, I usually spend alot of time planning my character while leveling, but thats the MOST fun part of any RPG for me. In fact, it's virtually all I care about. Character customization and development. And save scumming or cheating in an RPG is... sacrilegious. An RPG is only as good as the amount of content you DIDN'T see on a single playthrough. That means there we're plenty of decision points, and they actually mattered. And not to mention it means you have motivation to play a 2nd+ time. I'm trying not so sound like a troll or to flame you or w/e, and maybe it's my background in D&D games (Which is virtually unlimited content, limited only by your DM's patience/creativity) and wanting all games to have that level of choice, but I can't believe how anyone could get enjoyment out of playing like that, and being so crippled of commitment to never play.
Reply

Posted: Jun 26th 2011 2:51AM pcgneurotic said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@DarkWalker

I think part of the fun of DDO is the almost endless choice at character creation; just like making a PnP character, it's almost a whole game in itself. I encourage you to log back in and take another look, make a new char.
Reply

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 6:37PM Khalus said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
This article has a very good topic because its been on my mind for a very long time now, and mostly in regards to FFXIV. Every time Yoshi-P posts an update letter and every time a new patch is finally released I read/log in feeling like "will this be the patch that convinces me to play again!?"

I feel so excited about the coming changes and wanting to play so bad, but whenever I log in, I have this massive feeling of "BLAH" I mean really, I don't have any inkling to lvl cause there is really nothing I feel warrants a reason to spend time leveling towards. Sure there is a supposed end-game to collect pieces of gear from NMs, or to craft pieces of gear from NM drops, and there ya have it...collect pieces of gear...thats about it. There is a story....kinda, but they're so far apart and short, its just not very exciting to me.

I never play an MMO for end-game and grinding for sets of gear...its so damned boring and pointless to me...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I miss how FFXI works, and sure it has the end-game sets of gear too, {there are also tons of sets of gear across all level ranges as well} but what XI has that XIV doesn't is an incredibly expansive storyline with an exhaustive list of quests from NPCs with personal cut-scenes that your character participates in. And an amazing series of missions that start out easy and becomes excruciatingly difficult to complete, plus they required that you be a certain XP or even Fame lvl to unlock and obtain them.

Leveling had a huge purpose in XI that "at least to me" was more about earning that next lvl so I could get the next quest or mission and learn more about the story and lore. And to view that next CS and figure out how to defeat the next boss which was usually an NM with a unique battlefield and conditions to win.

FFXIV has none of that, and the way its proceeding doesn't appear as though it ever will. The Guildleves & Behests are so boring and monotonous and offer nothing exciting except a mass of XP.. FFXI has the Fields and Grounds of Valor that the leves spawned from, but are so much better with the tab rewards and being able to buy food and spells with for your char, and there is a much better variety of monsters and NM bosses to add a random stat/ability to your gear across all levels.

I know XIV had a horrible launch and still isn't near as good as it should have been, but not long ago one of my favorite mobs from XI were added to the game "Goblins" but every one I've encountered in XIV have not only been passive, but are beyond being able to solo. Why are there no low lvl ones to fight...they were all over Vana'diel from lvl 1, and quite the pain in the ass, but so much fun to kill!

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 7:29PM Fakeassname said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@Khalus

the problem with FFXIV is that it is an economy driven game, yet the there is little reward for players to buy and sell due to the market system being poorly implemented: the result is that most people don't feel any compulsion to play the game because there isn't any reward from your actions.

combat, gathering, and crafting all revolve around buying and selling materials and gear, but what else is there to the game when those elements feel empty because their shared linkpin is broken?

the markets and game economy that Yoshi and his crew should be working on, not the combat system, and unfortunately the game isn't going to make any significant progress until that changes.
Reply

Posted: Jun 25th 2011 9:38PM Vazzaroth said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
The question posed at the beginning of this article is something I actually am asking myself constantly during all MMO play.

I am actually really jealous of the people that just launch an MMO (Or any game) and just play to play. I really have to convince myself I am doing this to have fun and pass time. Once the newness of a character or level wears off, quickly, I have motivation problems. And then I remember that I have absolutely ZERO interest in raids in any game, which are unfortunately a huge part of "endgame". Then I remember I hate all endgame because if I'm not leveling and gaining new class options, I'm bored. Then I remember I have at least 20 other games on my PC right now I could be playing. Then I remember I am paying money for this time. Then I usually unsubscribe and don't play MMO's for another 6 months.

So to be completely off topic from the article: Free to Play is a good module, although Guild War's business plan is best. (Although I hate that game's gameplay unfortunately.)

Posted: Jun 26th 2011 2:04AM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
I do not know, whenever I leveled in XI it was in fact for two reasons. 1) To get closer to the level cap, but there was always that #2) To have fun. I, like a lot of players of XI, loved leveling. In Vanadiel, the act of leveling was as much a part of the overall game as the endgame itself. XI (and XIV alike) are about not vertical progression but they are built upon a horizontal progression model, mostly because the vast majority of the fun to be had in the game involves finding a few other players and heading off to kill things repeatedly for a few hours. To see those huge numbers go by and to push yourselves a bit too far sometimes and end up with 3 monsters instead of 1 and your entire party dead on the ground or alive and taking victory from the jaws of three calibri who thought their name was defeat.

Sure there was a lot of other things in the game that also gave way to the character progression. But XI was never about the grinding of dungeons/raids for gear as much as it was about EVERY experience you had in the game. The problem with the MMO genre since WoW's "design glitch" of solo leveling, the rest of the developers believe that is what people want in their MMOs.

The genre has become addicted to the "Amusement Park" and "casual" mentality, where 1) 90% of the game can be completed solo and 2) the entire endgame is made up of small/large group dungeon grinding with only 1 goal in mind, defeating the next boss and getting that gear it drops.

In XI at least we had multiple goals to achieve. From making that Relic/Empyrean/Mythic weapon, to defeating the most difficult of bosses. We had huge sweaping story missions that actually told an interesting story. Missions that took days/weeks/months and some times years to finally complete. Storylines that opened up new areas to us in an organic and interesting manner. We had many types of game to play and leveling was just as important part in it. The games leveling was such a large portion of the game, they gave us Merit points so we could continue that type of game play with our levelcapped jobs just cause we all enjoyed it so much.

Posted: Jun 26th 2011 4:01AM (Unverified) said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
In all mmos, players will fall into two main, yet vague categories:

Levelers and Players

While there are a lot of gamers that will try to gain levels faster or on a certain schedule to get a specific ability or piece of equipment or to even see a certain zone. most of these people will still be considered "players". These PLAYERS, are people that do just what their name states : they PLAY the real game. They enjoy all parts of the game and do everything possible to PLAY it the way it was intended to be played.

When it comes to "levelers", its a whole different aspect to mmo gaming. Forget the above description of players who might try and gain a level or two faster because they have a certain time-constrained goal.
Real LEVELERS are quite frankly, the bane of todays mmorpgs - and I'll tell you why.

These LEVELERS may enjoy some or all parts of a particular mmorpg, but to them , all mmorpgs are just MMOS. There is no "RPG" for a leveler. Above all else in a game they play, their main goal 99% of the time is to get to MAX LEVEL as fast as possible. These are the players you see in your respective mmorpgs who are at the games' level cap, yet cannot even name more than 1-2 dungeons. They have skipped the majority of the game , because to them, their gaming starts at level cap.

Now, I'm not going to start a discussion about how "wrong" this is or how sick this makes me, but I will say that every week, and every month more and more players are "converted" into LEVELERS.
You see, these players may have started out as real PLAYERS, but they sabotage their own gaming. Instead of playing for several hours per week, or even a few hours per day, they play tons and tons of hours every day, or almost every day, as much as they can. They dont really have real-life friends or relationships. A lot dont even have jobs. A large majority of these players DO NOT even enjoy the REAL game they are playing. They have destroyed their own version of the game, effectively creating a mini-game inside an mmo.
All they want to do is get to max level as fast as possible, get the best gear they can and run around feeling "powerful" They get sooo happy from that tiny little NUMBER next to their name, its just scary.

The problem is that these players will offer "advice" to newcomers - teling them things like "the game starts at the level cap", "you need the best gear to be good or have fun in this game" or even "forget quests, just go find monsters and keep killing them for hours and hours and then ull really be powerful"
The thing is, these players should be REMOVED from all servers and placed on their own separate servers where they can all be with eachother. No REAL player wants to run a dungeon in 5 minutes, skipping all mobs except bosses. No REAL players skip and refuse to read quest text their first few(or all) times they get them. These players have become so biased and spoiled and jaded from their rushing, they dont even play the REAL mmorpg anymore.

So by putting these players on their own server type will add 10000% more enjoyment for all the REAL players, which are the majority in all games. The "levelers" (and "gear junkies") deserve to be with eachother. They are the VOCAL MINORITY, and because they always cry and whine on the forums, some devs unfortunately, read what they hav to say.

More and more players are turning into these levelers because of the way they play mmos. Soon mmos will effectively "DIE", not from a \lack of players or subscriptions, but from a lack of REAL players. Devs continue to promote to the same pool of current mmo ghamers instead of finding new faces, so as players continue to create alts and play 10+ hours a day, they become more and more jaded. Insteado of playing the game with one or two characters and work on seeing alll of the great content a game might offer, they create toon after toon, rushing as fast as they can to the magical level cap - all so they can feel special.

Youll see it on channels and forums, how these players brag about things like " Oh, I have 12 max level characters" or " It only took me 30 hours to get to level cap". Noone cares! These players have multiple max level characters, yet each character has barely experienced 5%-10% of that mmo!

If a gamer REFUSES to read quest text, that right there should be reason to kick them from a game entirely, in my opinion. But since that wont happen,. they should be put on their own servers so the REAL players dont have to put up with them.

To me, "LEVELERS" are destroying mmos and corrupting more and more new players daily. There are sooo many great mmos out there, yet these players stick around and play the ones they can ABUSE and take advantage of a games systems - all for that little number in that top-left corner! Its sad. we all knlow this - but how do we get rid of these pathetic fools? IP Bans maybe? Sep. servers? I dont know - but I do know that PLAYERS are mmorpgs future, not gamers that hate a game and only care about level cap.

I pray that mmos start making their games take 200% + longer to get to level cap. Maybe that will deter some of these ridiculous "rushers"

Posted: Jun 26th 2011 5:10AM Khalus said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
@(Unverified)

I believe you're using the wrong word there ~ LEVELERS should be "Elitist Pricks" instead.

They don't care about anything else but end-game grinds for sets of gear, and number crunching for the maximum possible abilities for their class. They don't read quests or care about the story, and they ignore other players for the most part, but when they do speak, they treat us like trash because we're not elitist like them. They kick us from groups because we don't have a particular mod, or havn't watched a video of how someone else defeated a boss to copy. There is no try...only copy what others did until you win. And everyone but them are noobs.

Its quite sickening and has become a mass annoyance, and sure you can try to avoid and ignore them, but they're even on the multitude of gaming forums and sites too. So it makes enjoying any MMO quite difficult anymore.

Anyway...
Reply

Posted: Jun 26th 2011 9:30AM Transientmind said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
This is actually what I loved most about when WotLK first launched, and more recently with Rift: Levelling was completely incidental to the gaming experience that my brothers and I were enjoying together. Reading the new stories, cracking jokes about them, and revelling in the sheer joy of effective, responsive, fluid and intuitive controls. Whilst enjoying all this and exploring new content or getting thoroughly distracted by leaping into the fray to help out randomly-spotted struggling adventurers, that dopamine-rush-inducing level-up was always the icing on the cake, rather than the goal. Like putting on a really warm, favorite jacket for winter and discovering you'd left a twenty in one of the pockets.

I got the exact opposite feeling, playing FFXIV. The controls, menus and combat were not a joy to repeat and perfect, they were not responsive or intuitive. The world was tedious (and eventually repetitive) to navigate, the stories sparse and brief; by the time you had blown through all the entertaining content with your appetite growing, you were locked out of getting more by being forced to grind out leves. (Or worse, if you already used up your allotment in a long session.) Gathering mats was a chore that demanded excessive time and attention instead of being a brief detour to take you slightly off-track as you pursue your main goals.

In short... The opposite of everything that made exploring Those Other Games such fun ways to completely lose hours without realizing it. If FFXIV can become a game that rewards exploration not just with gear/loot/achievement incentive but for the simple joy of controlling your character and interacting with the world - story/direction/sandbox/themepark or no - it'll get me back.

I don't swim because I want to tone up my shoulders. I do it because I love moving through water. I don't want to log in to grind gear/crafting levels/levels/faction rep... I want to log in to =play=.

Posted: Jun 26th 2011 10:47PM tchuks said

  • 2 hearts
  • Report
To answer your question quite simply:

Because the only thing I can do at level 1 is get starter gear and watch much higher level players run around and actually DO STUFF in the game.


Featured Stories

Coming soon
Engadget

Engadget

Joystiq

Joystiq

WoW Insider

WoW

TUAW

TUAW