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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 2:27PM Ghostspeaker said

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Spot on article, Eliot. Games include combat because, dammit, it's fun.

On the other hand, though, I don't think anyone would like to see an MMORPG completely without combat. That's what Farmville is for.

Posted: Jun 14th 2011 2:27PM Borick said

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I love this article. Very well done.

I disagree that we are violent by nature. There is a horrible pattern of violent illness within us born of fear, but those cases fit an outstanding minority of human subjects and situations. Our strength as a species seems to derive from "eusocial" behavior -- humans are as exceptional in their willingness to die for unrelated others as they are predictably inclined to selfishness and murder.

It's difficult to get humans to fight each other. We become so focused on the thought of violence that we fail to see the statistical reality that most humans are not murderous zero-sum creatures.

I don't think that we need to turn away from combat or PVP in MMO games. This venue is a fine one for sublimating our aggressive urges, but the combat and conflict part of the game should be based from and serve a much larger core of cooperative, constructive gameplay.

I'd like to see systems that make the player a stakeholder in a cooperative online society. We should have warriors, and we can even have gladiators, but I the base of the MMO pyramid should be social bonding activities -- farms, towns, trade, art, entertainment, service, et cetera...

Posted: Jun 14th 2011 2:58PM Ghostspeaker said

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@Borick

Violence is an inherent part of nature itself, let alone human nature. Every living thing depends on the death of other living things to survive. Even plants derive their nutrients from the decomposed tissues of plants and animals that make their way into the soil by dying and rotting where they lay. We often like to forget this since in modern society other people kill our meat and harvest our vegetables for us, but the truth is that every living thing participates in the natural violence of existence. So I think that saying we're not violent by nature is deeply naive and based on an incomplete view of what nature actually is.

Yes, we are also inherently social creatures, and eusocial behavior is also an important part of the makeup of human nature. But that doesn't mean that it's the only part. We humans are complex creatures. We have the capacity for great compassion and great destruction, and nature being the seamless whole it is means those two are not mutually exclusive.

We don't have to be completely murderous beasts to have violence as an inherent part of our nature since we as thinking beings can choose not to indulge our baser instincts. But the fact that we have those instincts at all means that yes, violence is a part of our nature. Whether or not we act out that part of our nature or sublimate it is the only real question.
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 3:08PM Borick said

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@Ghostspeaker "Every living thing depends on the death of other living things to survive."

Humans do not survive as a species by eating their own. I acknowledged that violence and conflict are inclusive and have a place within the gameworld. I do not acknowledge that 'violent' competitive play between players is an appropriate _basis_ for a gameworld.

I think we learned to be euosocial before we learned to hit each other with sticks. I don't see the problem with MMOs being inclusive to to the Farmville set as well as the Call of Duty players. I just think that the latter should be tied mechanically to serving the former.
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 3:13PM Borick said

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@Ghostspeaker Nice post, by the way.
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 3:28PM Vagrant Zero said

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@Borick I like how you address Ghost's point by pretending you didn't understand it. Where did he say humans are reliant on cannibalism? Oh right...he didn't. He did say that humans are reliant on the killing and destruction of just about everything else though. Which is absolutely true. And makes your hippie lovefest look hilarious in comparison.

Strawman FTL.
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 3:31PM Ghostspeaker said

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@Borick

All you have to do is look back in our history to see that violent conflict is a basis for OUR world. These days it's more of a rarity (at least in modern Western countries... sort of...), but that was not always the case.

And "Humans do not survive by eating their own" is a highly debatable statement except in the most literal sense. Cannibalism may be rare, but unless you deny the reality of evolution and natural selection intra-species competition (which is often violent) is, in fact, a vital part of our survival as a species.

I don't think either should "serve" the other. They should serve each other mutually. They're both parts of the same whole. Why make one subservient to the other?
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 3:42PM Borick said

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@Vagrant Zero "He did say that humans are reliant on the killing and destruction of just about everything else though."

Which is a falsehood. I used 'devouring' as a euphemism, not a straw man, and my point remains. For every story of murder I can cite thousands of valid cases where humans avoided killing each other for gain. We do it all the time, every day. War, violence, killing... they make the biggest headlines, but they are the exception to the rule of social behavior.

Nowhere am I advocating a hippy love-fest. I'm not denying that we have violence within our nature. I am saying that violence between humans is NOT the basis of human sociality, and shouldn't be the de-facto gameplay for MMO gameworlds.

@Ghostspeaker Linked mechanically, each serves the other, but I focus on the checks and balances with regard to keeping the aggressive players from running roughshod over grandma's garden.

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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 4:23PM Ghostspeaker said

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@Borick

"@Vagrant Zero "He did say that humans are reliant on the killing and destruction of just about everything else though."

Which is a falsehood."

Really? That might not be as true today due to the fact that capitalism has allowed us to delegate these responsibilities to others like standing armies, but for the vast majority of human history, back before we HAD headlines, regular people were the ones going out and raiding each others' villages for food/goods/women. We didn't have standing armies. Sure, we've always been mostly well-behaved within our own social group (it's how we survived after all), but introduce outsiders into the mix and we've always been more than happy to kick the bejeezus out of them and take their stuff.

Most MMOs are like that. Combat is most often against an Other of some kind, whether it's the other faction/s or the Cult of People Who Talk In The Theater. It's also often against non-human enemies. Kill 10 rats/boars/three-eyed hippopotami quests are a staple of the genre.

You also ignore the fact that I'm talking generally and not just about violence between people. Unless you're one of those crazy breathatarian people (yes, they are a real group, google them if you have the stomach) you absolutely have to kill other living beings to survive. That's an inescapable fact unchanged by the fact that we happen to buy our meat and plants pre-killed for us these days. Just because you don't kill it yourself doesn't mean you don't have a significant part in its death.

Also, nowhere did I advocate open universal PvP. I don't find such gameplay fun myself. However, I don't find it inappropriate either. It's a matter of preference, not of appropriateness. "Appropriate" is an entirely different argument since "is" is different from "ought".
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 7:44PM Eliot Lefebvre said

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@Borick

I'm sad to see your comment getting voted down - I might disagree with you, but it's a fair counterpoint to make, since saying "human beings are violent" is not exactly the sort of image that fills anyone with warm fuzzies.

That being said, my point here is not to discount that humans are capable of marvelous acts of kindness and compassion which have no violent undertones. We're not innately violent and nothing else; we're also fundamentally social animals, which is at direct odds with that. But this article was focusing on violence, and so I chose to focus on that particular part of human nature.
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 8:19PM Borick said

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@Tempes Magus I don't consider killing animals to be food to be in the same category of violence as that willingly committed against another consciousness-bearing entity.

We hunt. We kill. We build and consume. But we destroy ourselves when we turn this violence against each other. I understand that this happens, but I also understand the balance between guns and butter.

I feel like I lack terminology here. If I get picked apart for using the word violence by folks who equate violence with eating animals or carrots, or as a generic term for the consumption of energy, then the point of the argument is lost.
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 9:00PM Eliot Lefebvre said

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@Tempes Magus

No, he understood my meaning, he just disagrees with one of the precepts that I put forth in the article. And he did so in an internally consistent fashion - there's nothing wrong with arguing that humans are not innately violent, but are rather a distinctly social evolution that does not naturally turn violence upon members of our own species. It's the sort of human nature debate that's been ranging pretty much since the start of time, the question of whether we're animal or something more, whether we're soulless lumps of clay or touched by the divine.

It's a great debate, and it's one that I would love to touch on if not for the fact that it would have turned this article into one at least five times the length, with any connection to MMOs completely lost. It's a nuanced issue that I glossed over for the purposes of getting back to the point.

The short version is that there's a different between venting aggressive impulses in a non-harmful way and taking them out on other people, and there are miles of difference between shooting an animal for food and shooting another person because he cut you off in traffic. And as I said, there's a whole other article to be written about whether or not people are innately violent, but you don't want to see what that tangent looked like. (Although it did include a dance number in the middle.)
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 2:29PM stealthrider said

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I'll fight with any -ence I want to fight with, thankyouverymuch. That includes (but is not limited to) violence, incompetence, incontinence, relevance, irrelevance, experience and sixpence.

Posted: Jun 14th 2011 9:03PM Eliot Lefebvre said

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@stealthrider

So are you open to fighting with consistence, insistence, ambivalence, convenience, or flatulence?

I can't imagine an ambivalence fight would be all that exciting. Sixpence would be neat, though.
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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 2:49PM Space Cobra said

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Violence and video games have gone hand in hand for many years. Heck, Tanks and even Pac-Man being eaten or eating can be a bit combatitive.

Really, I don't mind violence and escapism in our games, I think we all agree with that, but if that's the only thing you do, it gets boring, adrenaline or not.

If you were on an apocalyptic world and had to daily hack through zombies day after day, year after year, barring being tired, you probably would consider it mind-numbing to an extent after awhile.

We need breaks and we need variety. This is why I play and enjoy a variety of games. I can go to street fighter or do an FPS arena match or even PvP, but if that's all there is to do, much like your example of f2p games advertising nothing but combat.

And really, some of us like to build, especially the women-gamers. To just make something, virtually or iRL and stand and look at it and use it, is cool.

Of course, some like to destroy such things, too. But really, it just boils down to my goals, at the present time, are different from another player's goals and maybe they will never match up. Again, even online, we are still in a social-setting. There are still decorum and nicties to be followed. It's much easier to be more free in a single-player offline game.

Posted: Jun 14th 2011 3:17PM Angn said

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The *last* MMO that should ever cut down on combat and provide more diplomacy options is Star Trek Online. The last thing I want is to be forced into resolving political issues thru the crutch of compromise and selflessness systemic in the entire Star Trek franchise. Thankfully, destroying bad guys is a lot easier to market and consume than being asked play diplomacy in a game that expouses such ideas as 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few,' and then contradicts itself with such dainty sophistry as the Prime Directive.

Game devs: If you're going to provide a diplomacy game, be prepared to explore ideas beyond the contemporary, feel-good, putatively correct ones that are wrecking the world today. Playing United Nations is not my idea of fun after eight hours of the same unworkable crap.

Posted: Jun 14th 2011 3:32PM Borick said

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@Angn I agree that adding a 'diplomacy system' metagame would be horrible, particularly given the naive ideological-fascist bent of the Federation.

I suppose that it would come down to that, wouldn't it? Developers aren't likely to give us a system from which we can derive a working social system -- they want to sell us new shell games.

Despite wanting to put combat and conflict in its place in a larger and more complex gameworld, I probably wouldn't care to see what the top-down development process would give us in social engineering.
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Posted: Jun 15th 2011 5:05PM (Unverified) said

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@Angn Specifically speaking regarding a theoretical STO where diplomacy is an option -- I would submit that if the worldview of the fictional Federation in Star Trek (and by its extension its creators, who hold that fictional organization as the heroes of the story) repulses you, that playing a game based on that IP is probably not the best for you.

It would make little sense for a game developer to tweak the game to appeal to people who specifically dislike its premise. "A fantasy MMO for people who hate fantasy" for example is a non-starter. This, I would argue, is in fact a part of STO's problem -- in that it tries to appeal to people the least likely to be interested in its world through over-reliance on combat.

As far as non-combat activities, I think an issue is simply a tech one. AI is not at the point where it can generate satisfying social-like interactions as part of its core gameplay, nor exploration. To do so would require a level of adaptability by the system that we presently don't have.

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Posted: Jun 14th 2011 3:31PM Daverator said

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I think that you are missing part of the equation. Combat is easy. From a game creation standpoint, rules, standards, ideas for combat are all pretty cut and dry.

Creating alternate outcomes that are compelling, social interaction, rewarding exploration, and logical problems. Creating these things that don't degrade into a simple "look up the answer on the nearest wiki" is much more difficult for creators.

Star Trek is interesting because you see a group of people deal with problems, you become attached to those people, so to see them succeed or fail means something to you. Making a player become attached to a NPC is a very difficult task. I am willing to bet most STO players see Bridge Officers as their associated Ship abilities more than a valued member of their crew. To make more of them, would require a LOT more work, to give them believable personalities that don't feel like a carbon copy would be difficult. They would need to act on their own on occasion, probably be voiced in some manner (hard to feel emotion from a block of text), at the very least be very well written. And they would need to have a sense of continuity, Mass Effect and Dragon Age let you learn about your companions gradually throughout the game, and they will occasionally remark on some of your previous adventures, so that by the end of the game, maybe, just maybe, the character has more meaning than just a pile of abilities at your disposal.

Posted: Jun 14th 2011 4:49PM Saker said

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I'd like to see more mature and expansive worlds where there is more to do then endless mindless violence because frankly beyond the fact that it's just not very (mentally) healthy it's just plain boring. I've been playing these games since the original alpha of Meridian59, I'm bored to tears with the same ol endless-mindless-pointless violence. Give me a world! ArcheAge looks like it might just have enough of a really interesting immersive world to be the ticket. Give me creativity!

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